Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Regulations Committee
Aug. 30, 2000
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1 7 BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the 8 30th day of August, 2000, there came on to be 9 heard matters under the regulatory authority of 10 the Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in 11 the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks 12 and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, 13 Texas, beginning at 9:26 a.m. to wit: 14 15 APPEARANCES: 16 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION: REGULATIONS COMMITTEE: 17 Chair: Lee M. Bass Ernest Angelo, Jr. 18 Carol E. Dinkins Dick W. Heath 19 Nolan Ryan John Avila, Jr. 20 Alvin L. Henry Katharine Armstrong Idsal 21 Mark E. Watson, Jr. 22 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT: Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director, and other 23 personnel of the Parks and Wildlife Department 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 2 1 AUGUST 30, 2000 2 3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Good morning. 4 Are we live? 5 We will commence our meetings with the 6 call to order of the Regulations Committee, 7 please. And Mr. Sansom would you please read 8 our opening statement. 9 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Chairman and members 10 of meeting and this -- notice of this meeting 11 containing all items on the proposed agenda has 12 been filed in the Office of Secretary of State 13 as required by Chapter 551 of the Government 14 Code. This is referred to as the Open Meetings 15 Law, and I would like for this action to be 16 noted in the official record of the minutes. 17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. First 18 order of business will be a briefing on the 19 chairman's charges, and would you please do 20 that for us. 21 ITEM NO. 1 - BRIEFING - CHAIRMAN'S CHARGES. 22 MR. SANSOM: Yes. Mr. Chairman, 23 the charges for regulations include the 24 establishment bylaws for the finfish license 25 management review board and that has been ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 3 1 done. 2 We've issued requested for bids for the 3 first commercial crab license buybacks and bids 4 for the eighth commercial shrimp license 5 buybacks. We have also requests to publish 6 amendments to the MLD regulations on our agenda 7 today, so that conclude the charges. 8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Also, the Committee 9 needs to approve the minutes from our last 10 committee meeting, and if there are any changes 11 or observations, the Chair would entertain them 12 now. 13 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Approval. 14 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Second. 15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion for approval 16 by Mr. Heath, second by Mr. Henry. All in 17 favor? 18 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed? 20 (No response, and motion carries 21 unanimously.) 22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. 23 AGENDA ITEM NO. 5: ACTION - MIGRATORY GAME 24 BIRD PROCLAMATION- LATE SEASON. 25 CHAIRMAN BASS: We're going to go out ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 4 1 of order a little bit today because I 2 understand there's scheduling issues with the 3 staff and first do the migratory game bird 4 proclamation late season. 5 Good morning, Mr. Bevill. 6 MR. BEVILL: Good morning. 7 Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, my 8 name is Vernon Bevill. I'm the program 9 director for migratory wildlife, and today 10 marks the third part of our process for the 11 implementation of migratory wildlife 12 regulations for 2000-2001 season. This is the 13 section that deals with late-season species and 14 we will also be involved in one amendment to an 15 early season species. 16 The primary changes that resulted by the 17 Fish and Wildlife Service, two of those changes 18 relate to our ability to set the Light Goose 19 Conservation Order at this meeting rather than 20 later in the fall by emergency regulation that 21 pertain to shortening the goose seasons and -- 22 and sandhill crane season, and the other change 23 relates to the fact that the Fish and Wildlife 24 Service has offered a second youth hunting day 25 that would allow a full youth hunting weekend ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 5 1 this year. 2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Well, the -- the 3 additional day is in addition to the general 4 season; is that right? 5 MR. BEVILL: In addition to the 6 general season, but within our maximum 7 allowable 107 days of hunting. 8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Total of that 9 season. Okay. 10 MR. BEVILL: And the Western Goose 11 Zone, we did contemplate and -- and discuss 12 this with you at the April meeting, the 13 possibility of establishing a Central Goose 14 Zone to deal with the fact that not many light 15 geese occur in the eastern portion of the 16 Western Goose Zone and last year we had to run 17 the conservation order during that period that 18 required a closure early. After reassessing 19 the harvest of light geese by shortening the 20 Western Goose Zone by a week we've decided that 21 we weren't -- wouldn't gain enough to do that 22 again this year, so we are recommending the 23 full light and dark goose regular seasons for 24 the Western Goose Zone and the dates are 25 similar to last year with calendarship, bag ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 6 1 limits are unchanged. 2 For the Eastern Goose Zone, instead of 3 having to come in by emergency rule and shorten 4 the -- the calendar goose season and the 5 regular light goose season, we were able to do 6 that this year at this meeting, so the light 7 goose season and the dark goose seasons will 8 both -- will all initiate on October 28th and 9 close on January the 21st with the same bag 10 limits as last year. 11 The Fish and Wildlife Service is giving us 12 this option to establish the Light Goose 13 Conservation Order in concurrence with our 14 regular seasons as I've noted, and so for the 15 Light Goose Conservation Order, we would 16 implement that in the Western Goose Zone on 17 February the 12th and run it through April the 18 1st and January the 22nd through April the 1st 19 in the Eastern Goose Zone with the same 20 provisos as allowed the past two years. 21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: In -- In the 22 Western Zone on the white-fronted geese, you 23 haven't had any luck in -- or have you -- what 24 effort have we made, if any, to increase that 25 to two? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 7 1 MR. BEVILL: We've -- We have 2 discussed this every year with the -- with our 3 fly-away and Fish and Wildlife Service and 4 the -- and the concern for white-fronts in the 5 Western Goose Zone is that they're coming out 6 of the Pacific population primarily and that is 7 a somewhat smaller population, and so we can't 8 get concurrence from the Fish and Wildlife 9 Service yet on increasing that bag limit to 10 reflect the same as the Eastern Goose Zone. 11 The Snow Goose Conservation Order requires 12 that sandhill crane season be closed during 13 that period. As in the previous two years, we 14 would have to take action to shorten the 15 sandhill crane season in compliance with 16 that -- with that stipulation. 17 The environmental impact statement on the 18 light goose issue is progressing and -- and 19 within our public comments we hope to point out 20 that this is really not a conflict and try to 21 extract the sandhill crane from that regulatory 22 requirement in the future years. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: How -- How much of 24 those seasons will we be losing? 25 MR. BEVILL: Well, this year we -- we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 8 1 moved this -- the opener for the sandhill crane 2 season in Zone C back a week, so we actually 3 gain a week back by opening it a little 4 earlier, but we're basically losing about 21 5 days of the 37 days in the -- in Zone C, which 6 is the Coastal Zone, and we're losing about the 7 same amount of days in the Zone B, but we -- 8 but we opened Zone B earlier and so we get -- 9 had a longer season in Zone B, which is a 10 light -- very lightly harvested area, anyway. 11 The real impact would be in Zone C. 12 CHAIRMAN BASS: We're losing over 13 half of it? 14 MR. BEVILL: Yes, sir. 15 Let me go back here. 16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Do you have any 17 estimates of how many -- how many hunters that 18 impacts? 19 MR. BEVILL: We have about 4500 20 active sandhill crane hunters in Texas, and 21 probably half of those hunt in Zone -- in 22 Zone C. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Over 2,000? 24 MR. BEVILL: Yeah. Yes, sir. And 25 that -- And that impacts about the harvest that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 9 1 we would normally take that -- 2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Sure. 3 MR. BEVILL: -- by about 50 percent. 4 CHAIRMAN BASS: And do we have any 5 estimates of how many hunters take advantage of 6 the late goose season, the extended snow goose 7 season? 8 MR. BEVILL: We -- We are running 9 estimates on that. We do a follow-up survey 10 every year to kind of look at our harvest 11 and -- and we're basing those estimates on the 12 calculation of the -- the hunters who are 13 compliant with HIP who say they are goose 14 hunters, and I don't have that number off the 15 top of my head, but we just ran the survey, and 16 last year, our survey indicated we harvested 17 about 53,000 Canada geese -- I mean, white -- 18 white geese during that extended season. And 19 this year's survey indicated we about doubled 20 that, and so we're still looking at that survey 21 to be sure we -- we've not missed something 22 because we want to be sure our number is 23 fairly -- fairly accurate, but the preliminary 24 estimate is that we went over 100,000 during 25 the conservation order period compared to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 10 1 53,000 a year ago. 2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Is there a way to 3 extrapolate how many hunters that might 4 represent? 5 MR. BEVILL: Yes, sir. And that's 6 part of what we're -- that's part of what 7 we're -- 8 CHAIRMAN BASS: So -- 9 MR. BEVILL: -- looking at. 10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. 11 MR. BEVILL: Uh-huh. For ducks 12 mergansers, and coots, the bag limit is 13 basically the same as -- as last year. The -- 14 The composition for those species that there 15 are further restrictions on is the same. Of 16 course, there are a number of species like teal 17 and gadwall and shovelers there are no 18 restrictions for those species, so that's 19 basically the same as last year. 20 Season dates with calendar shifts are 21 the same as last year for the high-plain 22 mallard management unit, the North Zone and 23 South Zone, because we are actually in the 24 high-plain mallard management unit, if you 25 total up the number of regular duck-hunting ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 11 1 days available, the teal season days, and the 2 youth weekend, there are a potential of 3 115 days of hunting, but we are restricted by 4 treaty to only 107 days of hunting in order to 5 provide the two-day youth weekend in the -- in 6 the high plains, we -- we pulled one day out of 7 the -- Actually, it's the Tuesday in the -- in 8 the first segment of the October hunt and -- 9 and laid that back with the -- with the youth 10 hunt feeling like the greater gain would be 11 providing the youth opportunity over a full 12 weekend and -- and the Tuesday was a -- and 13 particularly in the first segment was a 14 lightly-hunted day anyway, so that's the 15 movement we made. 16 And we are recommending the youth hunts 17 to -- to basically be the same weekend as last 18 year in each of the areas with the addition of 19 the Sunday opportunity for -- for youth 20 hunting. And count -- And the dates of the 21 season proposal are the same with 22 calendarship. 23 For the extended falconry season in the 24 high-plain mallard management unit because we 25 are at the maximum and we are not proposing any ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 12 1 days for the -- for the extended falconry 2 season, however, we are utilizing, I think, 91 3 gun-hunting days in the North and South Duck 4 Zone, so that leaves us some days to allow 5 extended falconry for the -- for the remainder 6 of the state and we are proposing that for the 7 22nd of January through February 6. 8 We had very light public comments this 9 year, only 21 to date, and the preponderance of 10 those comments revolved around recommendations 11 on when to set the youth weekend, and we have 12 pursued the youth weekend proposals consistent 13 with public comment. 14 Mr. Chairman, I would recommend that this 15 committee move this item forward to the 16 attention of the full commission tomorrow 17 for -- for action. 18 I'd be glad to entertain any further 19 questions. 20 CHAIRMAN BASS: Are there any 21 questions or comments at this time? 22 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval 23 of the full committee action. 24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion to move it to 25 the commission agenda tomorrow for public ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 13 1 comment and further consideration. 2 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Second. 3 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: 4 Mr. Chairman? 5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, ma'am. 6 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Was this one 7 elegible for consent? 8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Might be, but I would 9 suggest we not do it in consent personally. 10 Thank you for raising it. 11 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: It is an 12 option. I found it. 13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any comments? All in 14 favor? 15 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed? 17 (No response, and motion carries 18 unanimously.) 19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. 20 MR. BEVILL: Thank you, sir. 21 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: ACTION - TRAP, TRANSPORT, 22 AND TRANSPLANT. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right. Trap, 24 Transport, and Transplant permit. Mr. Cooke. 25 DR. COOKE: Mr. Chairman and members, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 14 1 my name is Jerry Cooke, program director for 2 Upland Wildlife Ecology and I'll be presenting 3 the proposed changes to the statewide Trap, 4 Transport, and Transplant Proclamation. If the 5 Commission require -- recall in '95 and '96 6 when we sunseted all of our regulations, this 7 proclamation had just been adopted and so it 8 was waived from review at that time. Many of 9 the changes that you see in your booklet are 10 essentially sunset changes. We're removing 11 redundant language simplifying language, 12 anything in statutes not required in 13 regulation, and -- But those are basically 14 nonsubstantive changes to the -- to the 15 regulations. 16 Also, because of some problems that 17 occurred this past year, we are defining 18 permittee as anyone who is allowed to conduct 19 permitted activities under a permit and 20 clarifying the substantive -- the supervising 21 permittee is the one to whom the permit is 22 originally issued and who applies for it. 23 In the proposal that's in your booklet, 24 there's some incorrect dates on the period of 25 time in which we would guarantee a review, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 15 1 approval, or disapproval of an application. If 2 someone were to apply between September 1 and 3 November 15th, we can guarantee that there will 4 be no more than 45 days involved in reviewing 5 and approving or disapproving their 6 application. This is a very busy time of year 7 for our people, and after that period, we can't 8 really make such a guarantee, and this is 9 hopefully to shift the application process to 10 earlier in the season rather than later. 11 Clarifying that all release sites must 12 have an approved wildlife management plan. 13 We're also defining a minimum impact 14 release as one having a density of deer less 15 than one to 200 acres for a tract of land. 16 These essentially will be waiving our 17 requirement to have a field inspection. Such 18 an inspection can still take place, but 19 basically it's not necessary under these 20 circumstances. 21 Any buck deer moved between October 1 and 22 February 10th will have its antlers removed 23 before it's moved and released. This would not 24 apply to an owner of two tracts that are 25 essentially contiguous, separated by a road or ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 16 1 by a fence or moving animals between pastures 2 on a single property, but any other -- Any 3 other buck moved during this period must have 4 their antlers removed. 5 Also, there was a problem in our 6 notification requirement. There were 7 individuals who would notify the Department, 8 quote, within 24 hours of an operation then not 9 do anything for three weeks and this was making 10 it difficult for inspection of either the trap 11 site or the release site. We'd be changing 12 those propose -- that regulation to 13 notification between 24 and 48 hours of each 14 instance of a trapping operation. 15 Also, some changes in the recordkeeping 16 requirement which would require a daily log. 17 Most trappers do this anyway. These would be 18 available for inspection so that we could 19 determine whether they were in their process on 20 their permit at any time. 21 Also, in the final report, we would -- we 22 would be proposing to change the regulation to 23 require a financial disclosure to be included 24 in the report of the permitted activities. 25 This can be done by receipt. That would be a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 17 1 feasible way of doing so, and, therefore, those 2 records would also be part of the daily -- 3 daily log of the operations as well and 4 available for inspection. 5 As we did with the Scientific Breeder 6 Proclamation, we're proposing that any truck, 7 trailer, box, or whatever, which animals are 8 being possessed under this permit be marked 9 with a simple marking of three Ts on the back 10 of the vehicle or box. 11 Also, we're including in this regulations 12 very similar to those that we have in the other 13 Chapter 43 permits that require that any animal 14 that's inadvertently killed, either during the 15 trapping, transporting, or releasing operation 16 be kept in an edible condition, disposed of by 17 donating it to a needy individual, charitable 18 institution, those sorts of things, and those 19 receipts for those animals would be included in 20 their final report. 21 Also, animals that were inadvertently 22 killed during these operations would be part of 23 the number of animals that they had been 24 permitted to trap. In other words, it would 25 count against however many they were allowed ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 18 1 under the permit. 2 Public comment is fairly light on this -- 3 on this issue. We had public hearings in 4 Cotulla, Kerrville, San Angelo, Athens, and 5 Austin, which was attended by 36 people. 6 Basically, the comments were very -- were very 7 supportive. There were a lot of questions. 8 There weren't really any negative comments at 9 any of those, but there was one suggestion that 10 perhaps the definition of a minimum impact 11 release could be more deer, but basically in 12 our conversations with the task force, the -- 13 the recommendation of the task force was all 14 over the board and we kind of split the 15 difference in our proposal, and we would 16 recommend that we retain that. We had 13 17 e-mail comments that all were basically opposed 18 to the whole process, you know, not any aspect 19 oft proposal, but just the Trapping and 20 Transport Proclamation in general. 21 This will be the motion that we'll be 22 recommending to the full commission tomorrow, 23 and at this time, I'll be happy to take any 24 questions or comments you might have on this or 25 suggestions and my recommendations that we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 19 1 forward this to the full commission tomorrow 2 for further comment and adoption. 3 Ma'am? 4 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: The only 5 question I have on the required marking of 6 trailers and vehicles, will there be some sort 7 of decal or -- 8 DR. COOKE: They can mark them any 9 way they want. 10 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Any way. And -- 11 DR. COOKE: Basically as long as it's 12 a different color from the background and large 13 enough to be read from a vehicle following is 14 all that's really required. I don't think that 15 the -- I'm sorry. I don't -- Well, wait a 16 minute. I do have my regulations here. 17 MR. GRAHAM: While Jerry's looking at 18 them, let me thank the task force that worked 19 with us on putting all these recommendations 20 together. Some of the members are here and we 21 really appreciate their effort. 22 DR. COOKE: The letters have to be 23 6 inches. I'm sorry. I couldn't recall the 24 exact, but it's -- It's just a contrasting 25 letter so that we could distinguish it. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 20 1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any other comments? 2 As I understand the recommendation, it includes 3 the -- some of the housekeeping items that we 4 discussed -- 5 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir. 6 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- recently of -- 7 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir, as far as 8 the -- as far as the notification, there's two 9 different ways that we've done that in the 10 regulations. We chose one and it probably 11 would be more appropriate to use the research 12 format for that and that will be a housekeeping 13 change. It really doesn't affect our ability 14 to enforce it or inspect or comply with the 15 statutes. 16 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right. Any 17 further comment or questions? And I believe 18 this one would be eligible for a consent 19 agenda. Got most of our comments on this one 20 up front in the task force and it's been pretty 21 smooth sailing since then. 22 DR. COOKE: It's just the -- It's 23 just the first one for me sort of to get a 24 consent agenda. 25 CHAIRMAN BASS: I have a motion and a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 21 1 second. All in favor? 2 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed? 4 (No response, and motion carries 5 unanimously.) 6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much. 7 DR. COOKE: Thank you, sir. 8 AGENDA ITEM NO. 3. ACTION - 2000-2001 SHRIMP 9 MANAGEMENT PROCLAMATION 10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Next item of business 11 will be the Shrimp Management Proclamation and 12 the Chair would like to recognize that 13 Senator Bernsen from the Beaumont area is -- is 14 with us today and we appreciate his interest 15 and attendance here today. Just recognizing 16 your presence, Senator, and appreciate you 17 being here and -- and having an interest in -- 18 in what we're doing here today. 19 SENATOR BERNSEN: Absolutely. 20 Absolutely. And I'll be in and out. I don't 21 need to make a comment right now. 22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Oh, you're welcome to 23 if you'd care to. Thank you. 24 DR. MCKINNEY: Mr. Chairman, 25 members, for the record, I'm Dr. Larry ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 22 1 McKinney, senior director for aquatic 2 resources, Parks and Wildlife. I've been 3 charged with introducing the -- this issue and 4 trying to address some of the basic concerns 5 that have been raised about the foundation 6 department, which the -- the proposal has 7 been -- has been addressed. You'll find in 8 your packet of information a -- a section 9 called -- entitled, Major Criticisms Received 10 on the Proposal of the Shrimp -- of Shrimping 11 Rules, which is staff's attempt to address some 12 of those common issues that were raised 13 throughout our public process, and what I would 14 like to do today is -- is to briefly review a 15 couple of those that -- that we heard quite 16 often and then, of course, answering any 17 questions that you might -- that you might 18 have. I would like to go over with you 19 three -- three different areas, a discussion on 20 environmental impacts on the shrimping 21 industry, bycatch studies, and basic -- what I 22 call basic shrimp management science. 23 The first issue on environmental impacts, 24 there's been some -- been consistent statements 25 that, in fact, environmental conditions are the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 23 1 real cause of declines in shrimp populations. 2 That's -- That's where the problem lies. I 3 want to briefly address -- address those, and 4 those types of impacts really do fall into -- 5 into two areas, one that I would call 6 long-term, kind of cumulative impacts, and 7 those are issues that directly affect ecosystem 8 health: Water quality, water quantity, 9 habitat. 10 And our staff, in summarizing where we are 11 in those long-term issues, for example, I'm 12 looking at water quality. When we look at our 13 two major bay systems, Galveston and 14 Corpus Christi, which has the most impact on 15 them and look at the results of studies by the 16 national estuarine programs, we see that, in 17 fact, water quality is improving in those bays 18 and has been. 19 Water quantity, this is fresh water 20 inflows. It's an important issue for all of us 21 that we've -- we've dealt with, and if we look 22 at that, we know that those issues are going to 23 become increasingly important along the upper 24 coast areas, that -- that we're -- we're in 25 fairly good shape there now, but with the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 24 1 pressures of water development and so forth, 2 it's going to become more and more critical, 3 and as you move down the coast toward Corpus, 4 they are important right now and they are 5 limiting factors on the health of those systems 6 and the fresh water that it receives, so we're 7 actively working in those areas. 8 Habitat, we have along the Texas coast as 9 we have seen throughout the country, we've lost 10 about half of our -- our wetlands, which are -- 11 are fundamental to -- to those issues. 12 So those are long-term factors that we do 13 have to deal with. They do -- These factors do 14 affect the carrying capacity of those coastal 15 estuarine systems and we're all trying to work 16 on them. It's the one area, I think, in which 17 I would hope that all of our interests, 18 commercial, recreational, and department 19 would -- would agree that we have to work 20 together on to make sure that we -- that we 21 protect the health of those -- of those 22 systems. But the reality is that that carrying 23 capacity has diminished and -- and is 24 diminishing, and as it affects how we manage 25 all of our fisheries, it's a carrying capacity ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 25 1 deal. It's a matter of how we allocate those 2 resources and how we allocate the pie itself 3 and how we deal with that, and that's what we 4 have to deal with. 5 When you look at -- at other factors which 6 are more short term, perhaps annual types of 7 impacts, we're talking about droughts, 8 hurricanes, and floods, and so forth and those 9 do, obviously, affect on a -- on a short-term 10 basis, even annually production of shrimp, 11 fish, and -- and other things as illustrated 12 here on -- on this graph. The point I would 13 want to make and I think you've heard this and 14 you will hear it, that, for example, Well, 15 we're having a good shrimping year this year. 16 Why are we doing these regulations? Well, that 17 questions is concerning because, in fact, we 18 don't manage fisheries of any type on a 19 year-to-year basis. We look at the long-term 20 sustainability. I think if you were to say 21 that, okay, if we're having a good year this 22 year, what do we do when we have a bad year? 23 And, in fact, the good year this year was 24 mostly offshore and with places inshore that 25 weren't. We don't want to be in a situation ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 26 1 where we -- we look at it on that basis, we 2 have to look longer term, and so that's -- 3 that's what we're looking at here and what we 4 look at and that Hal and others will -- will 5 adequately, I think, could demonstrate to you 6 that our concern and the reasons we've come to 7 you is that decline, that long-term decline as 8 you see on the graphics of -- of our shrimp 9 populations. 10 In another area of -- of some concern 11 raised was that in looking at bycatch issues, 12 that our bycatch data was not valid because the 13 TPWD boats were used, Parks and Wildlife boats 14 were used to do that. And, yes, we have used 15 our boats in looking at efficiencies of various 16 bycatch devices and other things, but the basis 17 upon which our proposals have come forward is 18 illustrated here in the graphics. In fact, 19 those studies were conducted through the period 20 of 1993 to 1995, included seven bay systems. 21 We analyzed 854 tows from 216 different 22 commercial boats. Basically, our biologists 23 went out as the fishermen were towing, came up 24 to the fisherman and basically bought a portion 25 of their catch and did the analysis. This is ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 27 1 straight out of -- out of the commercial 2 activity and that's the basis upon which we 3 made our determination of -- of the impacts 4 of -- of bycatch and those studies as you can 5 see where they were done and at what time. 6 The final issue and one that's most 7 important and we will spend some time on this 8 talking about the very foundations on which 9 this proposal is based and that's the 10 science -- science of shrimp management. There 11 have been a couple of statements made 12 consistently that we hear that there is a 13 contradiction between Texas Parks and Wildlife 14 and the National Marine Fishery Service 15 information and one you can overfish shrimp 16 stocks. And I want us to spend some time on 17 that this morning addressing those issues and 18 we have enlisted the aid of some scientists to 19 come up and talk with you about it and give you 20 the opportunity to talk with them. 21 But before I introduce those speakers, in 22 the back of that packet that talks about that 23 criticisms, there is a glossary, a multi-page 24 glossary of terms that -- that are used, and 25 what I've done and will do for just a few ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 28 1 moments, I've picked out some key terms that 2 you will hear over and over this morning and 3 throughout the day and I want to make sure that 4 we -- we understand them and -- and can go 5 forward with them, so let's do that. 6 First of all, the term of biological 7 overfishing, this is a key term for us in that 8 in our fisheries management plan, we are 9 directed that when we recognize biological 10 overfishing as occurring, that's the key for us 11 to take some action and bring forward 12 recommendations to you-all -- to you-all. And 13 that biological overfishing occurs when harvest 14 falls below maximum sustainable yield and we 15 begin to get some indication of that by a 16 declining CPUE, catch per unit effort. So when 17 we see that happening, that's how we're 18 directed in our management. And when we see 19 that begin to happen, that's when we need 20 to take action to -- to meet our 21 responsibilities. 22 So let's define those two terms. First, 23 catch per unit effort, which basically is the 24 amount of shrimp caught by a defined amount of 25 effort, usually in pounds her hour. I think an ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 29 1 analogy of this would be -- And I'll promise 2 I'll only use the baseball analogy once and 3 that's batting average. That's really what 4 we're talking about, that success for effort of 5 coming up to the plate on it. That's what 6 we're talking about, how -- a standardized form 7 of trying to -- to get a handle on what success 8 rates are per unit of effort or times forward. 9 So that's -- That's what CPUE would be. 10 Maximum sustained yield, MSY. This is the 11 largest average catch that can be taken 12 continuously on a sustained basis obviously 13 from a stock under average environmental 14 conditions. Basically all other factors aside, 15 what's the -- the greatest poundage that you 16 can produce of any particular fish, in this 17 case, shrimp. What's the maximum sustained 18 yield that you can expect. This is a basic 19 figure in looking at how you manage fisheries. 20 What we look toward as far as what we're 21 trying to do and certainly what it's our 22 attempt for our proposal before you today to 23 accomplish is optimum yield, not maximum 24 sustain yield, but optimum yield, the amount of 25 shrimp the fishery will produce on a continuing ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 30 1 basis that will achieve a maximum economic 2 benefits to the shrimping industry and the 3 state and as modified by relevant social or 4 economic factors. In other words, taking into 5 account impacts on -- by bycatch, those types 6 of things, trying to look at a set of proposals 7 that will reach an optimum yield that will 8 satisfy other impacts, other fisheries, other 9 issues, be it bycatch, turtles, or whatever, 10 trying to come up with that average. That's 11 where we're -- That's where we're trying to 12 go. 13 A couple of other terms, two last terms 14 that you will hear over and over today and have 15 heard, recruit overfishing defined as stocks 16 that are exploited to a level where 17 reproduction capacity is depressed, recruitment 18 of young to the population is too low to 19 support the current fishery. This is the state 20 that you do not want to reach. It's very 21 difficult, and -- and as I've tried to work my 22 way through each process and look at other 23 fisheries management issues, this is the key 24 issue that -- that consistently has been 25 difficult to detect until you're there and -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 31 1 and then you -- then you have really problems. 2 How you -- How you find that is very -- is very 3 difficult and -- and one that certainly is -- 4 is one that no one wants to achieve, but, in 5 fact, in other fisheries where they have, it's 6 been -- it's been really a disaster for them, 7 so that's -- this is not where we want to go. 8 What we look at -- And the other term 9 you'll hear is growth overfishing, individuals 10 caught at too young an age where benefits for 11 future growth are lost, where more are caught 12 but average weights are low, turtle -- total 13 yield is less than if the young had been 14 allowed to grow. These are the conditions that 15 we're facing now and our sign that when you get 16 to this growth overfishing, you know what's 17 coming next, so this is when you want to take 18 that action to -- to try to -- to turn that 19 around, and that's -- that again, is the basis 20 of where we're at. 21 Unless there's any particular questions, I 22 want to now really go on to our guest speakers 23 to address these issues. And I -- I will go 24 over and kind of give that introduction to all 25 of our -- our scientists and then -- and then ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 32 1 we'll go from there, but first, I want to 2 introduce you to Dr. Adolfo Gracia. 3 Dr. Gracia, as you see here, is an 4 international expert, world traveler, well 5 recognized in the scientific community for the 6 work that he does. He's director and senior 7 scientist at the Institute of Marine Science 8 and Mammalogy of the National University of 9 Mexico. We're very fortunate to have him here 10 with us. Dr. Gracia really after hearing of 11 our proposal and reading about it came forward 12 to us and through e-mail, really, and -- and 13 offered up that he had had these types of 14 experience with overfishing of the shrimp 15 stocks in -- in Mexico and -- and he has 16 published on it widely and we asked him to come 17 up and share his experiences that he has had in 18 Mexico with you to illustrate the fact that, in 19 fact, you can overfish shrimp stocks and it has 20 happened more than once in Mexico, and I think 21 you'll find that -- that very -- very 22 illuminating. 23 We have two other experts -- 24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Excuse me, Larry. I 25 just -- just learned, and for those who like me ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 33 1 didn't know, benthic ecology, I understand, is 2 the -- deals with this -- the bottom. 3 DR. MCKINNEY: Yes, sir, the -- the 4 animals and organisms that live in the 5 substrate and upon which shrimp and others 6 feed. It's a very basic fundamental -- I would 7 say it's probably the most important area in 8 the marine ecologist because I'm a benthic 9 ecologist myself by -- by the short train, but 10 that's another -- that's another deal. 11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Put Andy on the 12 spot. He was worried as to whether his answer 13 he was me was right or not. 14 DR. MCKINNEY: I find that our 15 executive director is nearly always correct, so 16 I wasn't too worried. 17 CHAIRMAN BASS: He is. 18 DR. MCKINNEY: All right. See if I 19 can get back on track. I would go -- I would 20 like to go ahead at this time and -- and 21 introduce our two remaining scientific 22 speakers. One, Dr. Roger Zimmerman who is the 23 current director of National Marine Fisheries 24 Laboratory at Galveston, Texas, and we know 25 well as you can see here his history. I've ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 34 1 known Dr. Zimmerman for -- for many years. He 2 did want to -- me to let you know that he is a 3 native Texas, he was born and raised in South 4 Texas so he's very much familiar with -- with 5 Texas and our situation. Widely educated 6 through -- throughout Texas, Florida, and the 7 University of Puerto Rico so he will be here 8 obviously addressing the issue about agreements 9 and issues with the National Marine Fishery 10 Service. And also joining him this morning is 11 Dr. James Nance who is chief of the fishery 12 management branch of the National -- the Marine 13 Fisheries Laboratory there, and Mr. Nance has 14 been widely quoted by many scientists, so we 15 have him here today directly so that you-all 16 can -- can hear their presentations and -- and 17 talk to them. So at this time unless there's 18 any other questions from -- from you-all, I 19 would like Dr. Gracia to come forward. 20 Dr. Gracia has a superb grasp of English which 21 I wish I equaled in Spanish but do not, but 22 will ask Maria Rojo to come up and join him in 23 case there's any kind of translation issues, 24 but he -- he will handle himself well, so -- 25 DR. GRACIA: Thank you very much. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 35 1 Nice to be here. I'm am glad to be here to 2 give you a broad overview of the shrimp fishery 3 in the south of the Gulf of Mexico. As you 4 know, we share -- we share the same species 5 that you have in the United States. You can 6 see that the -- the main fishing grounds, which 7 are in the south of both of Mexico, one is in 8 Tamaulipas state and the other is in the Bay of 9 Campeche, which you know very well. The 10 problem we will -- we have had in the -- in the 11 Gulf of Mexico is that the shrimp fishery was 12 already exploited at -- fully exploited in the 13 '80s, in the '70s, and a total -- the total 14 shrimp reduction decreased around 50 percent in 15 the last year. What happened was the offshore 16 fishing effort decreased, but this was because 17 there was an increase in the artisanal fishing 18 effort, meaning the inshore fishing effort and 19 coastal fishing effort with the artisanal 20 field. What this happened was the fishery 21 brought to a level to stay the same effort, 22 same off -- offshore effort, but lower 23 production. Different fisheries were -- 24 artisanal were acting on nursery areas. I 25 mean, charangas is fixed net, drift nets on ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 36 1 white shrimp, and otter trawls on brown and 2 pink shrimp. This was harvesting juveniles, 3 and the problem was they don't allow shrimp to 4 grow at a maximum rate. This -- The maximum 5 size is -- is obtained offshore, and in Mexico, 6 we have -- with the artisanal fishery, we have 7 a loss of total volume mass in the ratio in the 8 brown shrimp 1:4 kilograms. That means a 9 typical one juvenile kilogram of shrimp, you 10 lost four in the offshore. With -- Regarding 11 pink shrimp, this is bigger because the shrimp 12 is -- is a small size. Pink shrimp is caught 13 at small size. This is -- The ratio is 1:9. 14 And finally, white shrimp is 1:2.5. 15 There the another thing we see in this 16 problem, that's if we protect juveniles, it's 17 60 percent more effective to -- for increasing 18 spawning if you just protect offshore adult 19 population. As you can see, there is an 20 inverse relationship with the offshore catch 21 and the artisanal inshore catch. 22 And we have some problems in the pink 23 shrimp. Fishing effort in the nursery area 24 caused decreasing torrent in the -- in the 25 '80s. This was a problem that -- by ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 37 1 overgrowth -- overfishing that finally led to 2 recruitment overfishing and caused a decrease 3 in the total production. 4 Another problem was the white shrimp. 5 This was because -- mainly because a new 6 artisanal fishery appeared in '93 -- 1993 that 7 act mainly on the spawn of big shrimp. And the 8 end result, the offshore fishing effort 9 decreased trawlers, decreased the fishing 10 effort because fishing effort in artisanal 11 increased in the -- and also in other shrimp 12 life cycle stage. 13 These two fisheries, coast and the 14 unregulated artisanal effort increased that 15 finally and led to growth overfishing. And the 16 problem was that interaction between inshore 17 and offshore fisheries acting -- harvesting the 18 same species were taking more and more shrimp 19 from the population and the social pressure in 20 inshore fisheries promote the increase of 21 fishing effort independent of shrimp's 22 population situation. 23 Finally, what we have was this: The white 24 and pink shrimp collapsed and its production 25 reduced to around 20 percent of the annual mean ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 38 1 production. This was in sometime was around 2 10 percent of the total production we have on 3 white shrimp. 4 MR. SANSOM: What year was that, 5 Doctor? 6 DR. GRACIA: It's from -- It's '73 to 7 1980, the total production. This was -- 8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Where the collapse is 9 is, what, the end of the 1980s? It's hard for 10 us to read the dates on here. 11 DR. GRACIA: In white shrimp was in 12 the '83 -- 13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Uh-huh. 14 DR. GRACIA: -- and the -- Also, in 15 pink shrimp was around the '80s. The -- The 16 trend began to -- in the '80s and now in the 17 '90s, the -- the shrimp fishery's really at 18 the lowest state. 19 While there was something that was talking 20 about that -- Let's talk about that this stock 21 recruitment relationship that is supposed not 22 to be in -- in shrimp, we found a relationship 23 between in the three of the species: brown, 24 white, and pink shrimp. And this could serve 25 to determine critical areas for spawning ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 39 1 stock. You can -- In using this, you can 2 control cumulative fishing to define a risk 3 area where the spawning stock can be -- I mean, 4 as due to the fishing effort. 5 And also, this is very important because 6 the model can be used to regulate fishing 7 effort. High-fishing effort is increased risk 8 to their equipment, but optimal spawning 9 biomass can permit shrimp to take advantage of 10 interannual environmental viability. This 11 means that an enough population should be of 12 shrimp to have the ultimate deal independent of 13 the environmental evaluation. It's been to use 14 the environmental evaluation. 15 The -- We cannot be on the edge of the 16 risk area. It's needed -- A more bigger stock 17 is needed. What we have in Mexico, what we use 18 as regulation is closed season. We have a 19 closed season for brown shrimp. This also for 20 inshore and offshore shrimps. The difference 21 is that the inshore is 45 days and offshore 22 shrimp is more. The problem is different in 23 the south of in the Campeche Bank where a long 24 season has been set. In the offshore fishery, 25 it's six month and a half, the long closed ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 40 1 season, and the artisanal fisheries, I mean, 2 inshore, and inshore is -- is open between 3 these six months and a half. In the -- And 4 from August 1st to September, 45 days when 5 there are more spawners and juveniles. This is 6 because of political pressures in the -- in the 7 area. 8 Well, there is -- There is another 9 difference between brown shrimp. It was fully 10 exploited since the '80s. We have the same 11 thing, the artisanal fishery effort in inshore, 12 in coast, growth overfishing, but a closure, 13 both inshore and offshore was set in -- 14 during -- in '93 and reduced growth overfishing 15 and changed the trend of total production as 16 you can see in the picture. This allowed an 17 increase of total shrimp production of about 18 4,000 tons in the -- in '93. 19 Well, that now things are changing, the 20 political and social pressures are increasing 21 additional cash, the -- for increasing 22 additional cash are dissipating the effect of 23 the regulation and so the -- the juveniles and 24 the spawning potential is not protected. 25 Also, the long closed season in the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 41 1 Campeche Bay Bank is promoting an increase of 2 offshore fishing effort in the area and this is 3 affecting the total production, also the 4 spawning potential of -- of brown shrimp. 5 Well, I would like to -- to end with some 6 shrimp facts. Shrimp stock are subjected to 7 high harvesting levels in -- in Mexico. The 8 artisanal inshore and off -- and coastal 9 fisheries are practically of open access. And 10 accumulative fishing effort along different 11 life cycles stage is increasing. And a 12 stock-recruitment relationship exists, so 13 recruitment failure and shrimp fishery 14 collapses are possible. But important and 15 hopefully and optimistic is that the studies on 16 white and brown shrimp suggest that the shrimp 17 have a high capacity of recovering from 18 depleted states. The stock can be brought to 19 the original state, but obviously is control of 20 the fishing before is needed. This is to 21 achieve an adequate balance between the 22 different fisheries in the -- in the Gulf of 23 Mexico to optimize harvesting. 24 Also, shrimp size can be optimized. That 25 could be good for economic reason and for ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 42 1 spawning potential. And finally, optimal 2 exploitation of juvenile stock requires the 3 reduction of world overfishing while preventing 4 recruitment overfishing. 5 Thanks. 6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. It's very 7 interesting to see what's been going on in 8 neighboring waters, which is something we -- we 9 don't always have the opportunity to know. 10 Anybody have any questions or things 11 they'd like -- like to clarify? 12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: What was -- 13 What was the reaction of the shrimping industry 14 to your -- to the closures and how do they feel 15 about it now? 16 DR. GRACIA: Well, the long closed 17 season is -- But there are different reaction. 18 The -- The brown shrimp closed season was for 19 good. That is a very good reaction in the 20 offshore fishery because the brown shrimp now 21 is -- is -- is coming back to the same growth 22 of overfishing, and the 45 closure, both 23 inshore and offshore was very well accepted. 24 And the -- As a matter of fact, the offshore 25 fishing industry promoted increase of the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 43 1 offshore closed season beginning at the 1st of 2 May. This was -- At the beginning it was 3 45 days both, and now it's more than 65 -- 4 60 days, around 60 days, but this was good 5 because it increased total catch and increasing 6 sometimes in the degrees of shrimp size. The 7 problem is that the artisan -- the inshore 8 poaching and -- and also, the increasing 9 fishing effort before the closed season is 10 dissipating the -- the revenues of the -- of 11 the closed season. It's different in the 12 south, in the Campeche Bank, because this is a 13 long -- a long closed season and it's no good 14 for the industry because they don't have enough 15 time to -- to fish and they have to move to 16 Tamaulipas grounds and this is more expensive 17 and it's also increasing the fishing, offshore 18 fishing effort. 19 And as I told you, the problem is that the 20 inshore fishing is -- is allowed during the 21 time that it will be closed to spawner for 22 protecting the spawners and juveniles, for 23 white and pink shrimp. White shrimp is -- the 24 peak of recruitment is due in August, 25 September, and also is the -- is the more ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 44 1 important reproductive season and for pink 2 shrimp, it's important to protect recruits, 3 juveniles, in the -- during the September. So 4 the fishing, offshore fishing industry is not 5 very -- It didn't accept very well this long 6 closed season. 7 I think another combination could be done 8 to -- to keep the population to a good state 9 without affecting the whole shrimp fishery in 10 the Gulf. 11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much. 12 We appreciate your making the effort to -- to 13 come and speak to us today. 14 DR. GRACIA: Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Very good 16 presentation. 17 DR. GRACIA: Thank you very much. 18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. 19 DR. MCKINNEY: I think now we've got 20 Dr. Nance and Zimmerman, if you'll come on up 21 and -- 22 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Good morning. I'm 23 Dr. Zimmerman. I'm the head of the National 24 Marine Fishery Service Laboratory in 25 Galveston. We've -- We've been in the shrimp ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 45 1 laboratory for many, many years since -- since 2 the '50s. Today, I'll be representing Dr. Bill 3 Hogarth who is the regional administrator of 4 the Southeast Fisheries Service and he has 5 recently taken a temporary position as the 6 deputy administrator of the National Marine 7 Ser -- Fishery Service in Silver Spring, so 8 he's not able to be here. He and I have -- 9 have gone over some points. He has developed 10 these points, ten different points that we 11 would like to -- sort of summary points that 12 we'd like to emphasize to you and -- and 13 provide as the position for the National Marine 14 Fishery Service. 15 I have with me Dr. Jim Nance, and 16 Dr. Nance is a -- is at the Galveston 17 laboratory as well. He is the division chief 18 of the fishery management branch and he deals 19 almost exclusively with the shrimp fishing 20 industry and analysis of the data and 21 keeping -- keeping the data reporting to the 22 Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council and 23 also interacting with the shrimp industry 24 and -- and speaking for our agency as well. 25 So I'd like to get started. One of the -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 46 1 One of the things that has come up is -- is a 2 statement that there is a conflict between 3 fisheries, the fishery service data and -- and 4 the Parks and Wildlife data, and I'd like to 5 clarify that and say that there is no conflict, 6 that, in fact, we use the same fishery 7 dependent data. The catch statistics that the 8 Texas Parks and Wildlife uses and that we use 9 are -- are collected by the same group of 10 people, and these are our port agents that we 11 have throughout the state of Texas and other -- 12 other areas, so there's -- In terms of fishery 13 landings and catch per unit effort in the 14 fishery, there's -- there is no conflict in 15 that -- in that data itself. 16 Also, the -- the status of the stocks. 17 We're not -- We're not advocating that 18 recruitment overfishing has occurred. Texas 19 Parks and Wildlife is not advocating that or 20 proclaiming that recruitment overfishing has 21 occurred. We all know that this is not where 22 we want to go, and I think everybody is in 23 agreement on that that -- that we should avoid 24 this recruitment overfishing, which is -- which 25 is basically beginning to -- would be fishing ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 47 1 to the point of impacting the parent stock, in 2 other words, the brood stock. You don't want 3 to do that. You don't want to -- You don't 4 want to lose your brood cows because those -- 5 those are the ones that will give you your 6 production that you want for the next years and 7 in the future. 8 Growth overfishing we do believe has 9 occurred. Texas Parks and Wildlife says that 10 they believe that it's occurred as well. 11 Growth overfishing is basically a condition 12 where we're at the point of -- of -- of utilize 13 or -- or fishing the biomass down. We're 14 fishing it too young. We have more fishermen 15 impacting the biomass than are needed or 16 necessary and that the biomass is not allowed 17 to develop to its -- its maximum potential. 18 We believe because of this situation, 19 believe -- we believe that the -- that the gulf 20 stocks are being exploited at their maximum 21 level. There are -- There's a lot of 22 variability in it from year to year. Of 23 course, this can -- can change from year to 24 year. Sometimes you -- Some years you may be 25 taking actually too much. Other times you may ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 48 1 not be taking as much as you could, but we 2 believe that the gulf stocks are being 3 exploited at their maximum level and that an 4 increased amount of effort would not increase 5 the yield and that, in fact, and we've done 6 analysis -- we've -- This is nothing new. We 7 have reported this many times, the -- the Gulf 8 of Mexico Fishery Management Council that 9 reduction in effort would, in fact, result in 10 almost -- almost the same amount of yield. 11 There could be some reduction in effort and we 12 still get the same amount of yield. 13 Reduction of effort in the -- in the bays 14 on small shrimp is something that -- that could 15 improve the situation. It will produce higher 16 yields or greater -- greater biomass offshore. 17 This is precisely why we had the Texas closure, 18 to allow that to -- to happen and that has -- 19 that has worked. We've done some analysis for 20 the Louisiana fishery where they fish mostly 21 inshore and have shown that they, in fact, are 22 losing production or biomass that could be 23 attained for -- for the offshore. 24 The declines of -- of catch per unit 25 effort, especially in the late '80s were ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 49 1 certainly a warning sign for everyone. 2 Basically what it said was if you're -- if 3 you're starting to get a decline in the -- the 4 catch that each fisherman has available, then 5 you're getting close to that point of -- of 6 overexploitation. You're starting to walk the 7 line of maybe getting close to even recruitment 8 overfishing. There has been through the '90s 9 the decline occurred and there has been some -- 10 offshore there has been some reduction in 11 effort and, in fact, the CPUs have -- have 12 responded in the last few years and -- and come 13 back up somewhat. They're not quite at what 14 they were before the 19 -- early -- mid 1980s, 15 but this is just an example that effort is 16 still too -- too high. If -- If effort could 17 be brought down somewhat, that that would 18 improve the stocks and the -- and the ability 19 to -- to use these stocks more efficiently. 20 One of things that -- that we advocate as 21 managers, and I think that all resource 22 managers advocate, is a conservative approach. 23 One of the things that -- And we have to do 24 that. We don't have all the answers as to why 25 stocks respond from year to year, why we have a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 50 1 good year this year, why we had a bad year in 2 another year. We don't have all of those 3 answers and we can't predict those very 4 precisely. So because we don't have those 5 answers, we have to manage conservatively. 6 We've got to manage for -- We have to manage 7 for the worst years and we can't afford to 8 overexploit the stocks. We can't afford to -- 9 to -- even going beyond -- beyond fishing 10 itself, we can't afford to destroy the -- lose 11 the habitats. That has a big effect as well. 12 We -- We need to manage conservatively. We 13 need to conserve the stock, keep a healthy 14 stock. We also -- And that means we take a 15 low-risk strategy. We're going to do those 16 things that give us the lease amount of risk. 17 We also -- Going beyond fisheries, beyond 18 the fishing itself, shrimp and other kinds 19 of -- of organisms are important in the 20 ecosystem. We want to maintain a healthy 21 ecosystem and we need to base our management 22 upon the ecosystem itself and manage -- and -- 23 and keeping enough shrimp biomass to -- to 24 maintain a healthy ecosystem. 25 The -- By reduction in -- in shrimp ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 51 1 trawling, especially in the near-shore area, 2 there are some other kinds of -- of 3 improvements that we can make. One is an 4 improvement in -- in reducing bycatch, just the 5 reduction of effort. We've done some gear 6 modifications. Everybody is -- is very much 7 aware of -- of TEDs and -- and BRDs, bycatch 8 reduction devices, and the gear technology that 9 the industry is implementing and implementing 10 very well to reduce bycatch. The industry 11 doesn't want to catch sea turtles or -- or 12 extra fish any more than anybody else. They 13 want to catch shrimp. And -- But one of the -- 14 One of the things that one can -- can do to 15 improve the -- reduce the bycatch relationships 16 is -- is through closures, special very 17 targeted closures. And, of course, some of 18 those areas, one area is being proposed off 19 of -- of the near shore and where sea turtles 20 occur in higher numbers and -- and we are 21 obviously advocate the protection of endangered 22 species, which is the charge of -- of NMFS 23 is -- is an important thing that -- that a 24 closure could -- could improve. 25 Also, there's -- Over the recent decades, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 52 1 many fisheries throughout the nation have been 2 overcapitalized. That just means that 3 there's -- there are more boats out there and 4 more fishing and more fishing gear than -- than 5 some of the stocks can sustain. Some of them 6 have been overfished and NMFS recognizes that 7 there are stocks that have been overfished, 8 some such as the shrimp fishing stocks or 9 shrimp stocks are at maximum levels. That's -- 10 That's what the NMFS' position that -- that 11 shrimp stocks are being fished at maximum 12 levels. 13 We -- We believe that a reduction in 14 capitalization of the overall fishing 15 throughout the -- throughout the nation is 16 warranted. There -- There is a goal that NMFS 17 has put into place and that's basically to 18 reduce the amount of capitalization and -- 19 and fishing effort by about 15 percent. 20 Fifteen percent doesn't sound much -- like 21 much, but it is -- it's an important amount and 22 it takes us perhaps in the right direction, and 23 that goal is to achieve this within the next 24 four to five years. 25 And that's -- That's all I really have to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 53 1 say. Those are the ten points that -- that I 2 bring to you and I'd be happy to take some 3 questions. 4 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Dr. Zimmerman, 5 I'd like to ask you a question pertaining to 6 the drought. Do you-all notice a substantial 7 reduction in shrimp when we go through a dry 8 spell like we're going through now? 9 DR. ZIMMERMAN: There -- There's a 10 relationship between the drought and the 11 salinity in the estuaries and salinity -- 12 salinities -- the estuaries are what provide 13 the nurseries for shrimp production. 14 Salinity -- Salinities can either be too high 15 or they can be too low. And there's kind of a 16 moderate range and -- and it's different for 17 different species. Brown shrimp like the 18 nursery to be a little bit saltier. This year 19 the -- because of the drought, actually it is 20 im -- it's increased the salinity in the 21 nursery and improved the -- the total nursery 22 area for brown shrimp, so we're -- That's part 23 of the reason why -- And especially up in 24 Louisiana -- part of the reason why we're 25 having a very -- or we believe that we're ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 54 1 having a very good brown shrimp year. 2 Now, white shrimp, it's a little bit 3 different and it remains to be seen. We'll -- 4 We'll see what -- what the white shrimp 5 produce. Now, if salinity -- If the drought 6 were to continue and those salinities got even 7 higher yet, say, if we -- the drought continued 8 into next year, it could have a detrimental 9 effect on -- on brown shrimp and -- and any of 10 the -- any of the shrimp. That -- That 11 actually -- We believe that that did happen 12 back in the '50s when we had a very prolonged 13 and severe drought. 14 COMMISSIONER RYAN: So the -- The 15 time of the drought really doesn't impact it, 16 say, if we went into a drought in the spring as 17 we haven't this year, but we went into it here 18 in the summer, and depending on how long it 19 would last, it's -- it's not the time of the 20 drought as much as the length of the drought? 21 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, the -- the 22 timing does have an effect as well and -- and I 23 want to just -- just say that -- that if you -- 24 if you have relatively higher salinities in the 25 marsh, and we're not talking about extreme ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 55 1 salinities, but -- but higher salinities in the 2 marsh during the spring, then that can increase 3 the area of nursery available to brown shrimp, 4 which -- which are using it mainly in the 5 spring. Now, if you -- if you -- White shrimp 6 need a little bit fresher water. If you 7 have -- that extends into the -- into the 8 summer and you have very high or -- or too high 9 salinities for white shrimp during the summer, 10 you could have a detrimental effect on -- So 11 the timing is -- is important as well. 12 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: 13 Mr. Chairman -- Dr. Zimmerman, thank you for 14 coming in your official capacity. It's a great 15 help. You had mentioned that NMFS has 16 responsibility for endangered species and I 17 would appreciate your sharing with us what 18 other charges or mandates or authorities the 19 National Marine Fishery Service has with regard 20 to shrimp. 21 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, the main 22 authority, of course, is to manage offshore 23 fisheries in -- in federal waters through the 24 Magnuson-Stevens Act and that -- 25 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Isn't that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 56 1 regulatory authority? 2 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, we have 3 regulatory authority offshore. 4 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you -- 5 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We are -- That -- 6 That -- That actually provides us the 7 regulatory authority and -- and -- and we're 8 actually prohibited from allowing the stock to 9 be overfished through that -- through that -- 10 that law, so -- 11 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you see 12 that the proposed changes that the Parks and 13 Wildlife Department stamp has brought forward 14 being consistent with the types of work that 15 you're doing in the federal waters? 16 DR. ZIMMERMAN: I do believe that. I 17 think that -- that in going back to this 18 management of our resources and taking a 19 conservative approach, I think that both of us, 20 both Parks and Wildlife and National Marine 21 Fishery Service are -- are actually required to 22 take a conservative approach, and I think we 23 are. 24 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: When I hear 25 you say "conservative," one of the things that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 57 1 comes to mind is the notion of conservation, 2 and is that one of the objectives that you have 3 here, resource conservation? 4 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, abs -- 5 absolutely. It also means that we want -- we 6 want to take a low-risk approach, so it's 7 conservative to -- to different meanings of the 8 word one -- one certainly would want to -- to 9 conserve the resources and maintain the 10 resources and that would be through 11 conservation, but -- but also from -- from just 12 a fishing standpoint, the agency is required to 13 take a low-risk approach to management, so 14 that's -- that's conservative approach as well. 15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Is part of 16 your charge to deal with commercial fisheries? 17 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, yes, it is, 18 absolutely. And -- And historically, most of 19 the offshore fisheries in federal waters have 20 been the predominant -- predominant fisheries 21 have been commercial fisheries. The 22 recreational fisheries are starting to become 23 more important offshore, but the -- but the 24 large fisheries offshore have -- have primarily 25 been -- or a large take offshore has been ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 58 1 primarily commercial. And as a matter of fact, 2 the National Marine Fishery Service was derived 3 or -- or recreated from the Bureau of 4 Commercial Fisheries at the end of the 1960s. 5 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: And I have one 6 other question. Dr. McKinney had mentioned in 7 the review view of your credentials there are 8 an impressive number of peer-reviewed articles 9 and specifically mentioned that among these are 10 those dealing with shrimp fishery, but we 11 didn't get that same information about 12 Dr. Nance -- 13 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Uh-huh. 14 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: -- and it's my 15 understanding that you have published 16 peer-reviewed articles. 17 DR. NANCE: Yes. Absolutely. 18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: And in the 19 area of shrimp fisheries? 20 DR. NANCE: Yes. And the key -- And 21 as Roger mentioned, the National Marine Fishery 22 Service has the charge to deal with -- with 23 shrimp fisheries. It's important to remember 24 that -- that this is a stock within the Gulf of 25 Mexico. It occurs both off of Texas and off of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 59 1 Louisiana and -- and elsewhere. The 2 overfishing definitions that were developed 3 were developed so that we could monitor the 4 status of that stock, which is -- which is a 5 very, very important stock within the Gulf of 6 Mexico and as -- and as Dr. Zimmerman 7 mentioned, the stocks are not in a recruitment 8 overfished state, and -- so we need to avoid 9 that, and as Roger mentioned, effort has come 10 town, CPUE seems to have gone up in the -- in 11 the last part of the '90s, but those conditions 12 are still -- we need to monitor that fishery 13 because it is so important. 14 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: It's my 15 understanding that -- and in some of your 16 published works and peer-review literature that 17 you have observed that you think there is a 18 possibility of a decline in -- I think it is a 19 decline -- no, a possibility of recruitment 20 overfishing of the current shrimp stock. 21 DR. NANCE: Well, there's -- There's 22 always the possibility and, you know, as -- as 23 Dr. Zimmerman mentioned, if we've done modeling 24 where we've looked at with closures off of 25 Louisiana and off of Texas that there is ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 60 1 potential to increase the yield because of the 2 capture of small shrimp, but that becomes an 3 allocation issue and -- which is something that 4 management needs to deal with as far as 5 recruitment overfishing, there's always that 6 possibility, but with those -- with the 7 definitions that we have in place, they all 8 seem to be above that -- that value right now. 9 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: So we're 10 looking at a possibility? 11 DR. NANCE: Well, sure. 12 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Sure. 13 DR. NANCE: And that -- And that's 14 why we have overfishing definitions -- 15 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Sure. And -- And -- 16 DR. NANCE: -- is so that we can 17 monitor that and make sure we don't get down to 18 those -- to those critical levels. 19 DR. ZIMMERMAN: And when you have 20 a -- a stock that is -- you deem is being 21 exploited at its maximum level, you want -- 22 you're walking the -- you're getting close to 23 the line, and so that possibility is something 24 that you need to pay close attention to. So if 25 you have a stock that is much, much below ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 61 1 the -- what you deem might be a take level or 2 maximum take level, then you would -- you would 3 be less worried about it. 4 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Mr. Chairman, 5 excuse me. I just wanted to say that 6 Dr. Zimmerman and Dr. Nance were referred to 7 in, I think, our last meeting and in some to 8 have briefing papers. 9 And I think it's a great help to have you 10 here in person to explain your position and I 11 appreciate the Department staff inviting them 12 and NMFS making it possible for you to come. 13 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you very much. 14 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Are you-all 15 considering any additional regulations in 16 federal waters at this time? 17 DR. NANCE: No. 18 DR. ZIMMERMAN: No, we're not. 19 The -- The Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management 20 Council in our dealings with them are -- are 21 considering some -- some different -- different 22 kinds of -- of approaches, but at this point, 23 we're not. 24 MR. SANSOM: Dr. Zimmerman, I'd like 25 to -- to -- back to that question of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 62 1 recruitment overfishing, which is only a 2 possibility at this time. I would like to -- 3 to -- to refer back to the comment that you 4 made earlier and that is that the step below 5 that, which is growth overfishing is occurring 6 and we agree on that point. 7 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Have you-all 9 looked the staff's recommendations as 10 presented? 11 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Not in -- Not in a 12 critical detail or critical -- as a critical. 13 We've looked at some of the rec -- but at this 14 point, we haven't reviewed them critically and 15 I don't anticipate that we would necessarily. 16 I -- I think that -- that it's -- that from our 17 standpoint, because we're -- I think that what 18 Texas does in Texas waters is something that 19 Texas needs to decide and -- and, of course, 20 we're -- what we're providing to you is 21 information for -- for the offshore waters 22 and -- and the EEZ. 23 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Dr. Zimmerman, 24 when you were questioned about the issues 25 relating to ownership of the resources ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 63 1 themselves in the waters, how do you generally 2 address that briefly. 3 DR. ZIMMERMAN: These are public 4 resources. They're the -- and they're owned by 5 the public. That's basically how we -- we 6 approach that. 7 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Does 8 Dr. Gracia's comments with regard to the 9 declines that he specified and happened during 10 the '80s in Mexico cause your Department any 11 additional concerns for the Texas and upper 12 gulf areas? 13 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, it's -- It is 14 an example of how changes in effort in one 15 place, increased effort in one place can affect 16 the catch in another place and if you reduce 17 that amount of effort, well, you can -- you 18 can -- It's an example of how the inshore 19 fishery can affect the offshore fishery, and 20 that's as -- basically it's a good example of 21 that. 22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Dr. Zimmerman, I had 23 a question that I'd like to ask you and/or 24 Dr. Nance. The -- One of the first things that 25 you did was clarify for us that the data that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 64 1 you work off of is basically identical to the 2 data that the state is working off of. My -- 3 DR. ZIMMERMAN: And let me just make 4 sure that we're clear on this. 5 CHAIRMAN BASS: The same sources. 6 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We're talking about 7 the same source and we're talking about the 8 catch data, the fishery dependent data. 9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Would -- Would you be 10 able to give us a professional opinion as to 11 whether the: a) quality and b) quantity of the 12 data that is available for Fisheries biologists 13 to use is -- is adequate or of -- of enough 14 sufficient quantity and quality to make the 15 kinds of management decisions that -- that 16 we're looking at making? And I say this 17 realizing every scientist would like to have 18 more data and feel better about their theories 19 and that -- 20 DR. ZIMMERMAN: That's exactly right. 21 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- but you know -- 22 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We never -- We never 23 have enough data. 24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Right. 25 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We always like to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 65 1 have that extra piece of data that can sort of 2 make our decisions much -- much more -- we can 3 make our decisions more confidently. On the 4 other hand, the collection of the data is -- is 5 very extensive. There are port agents 6 throughout the state that -- that take data in 7 the major fishing ports and they -- they go to 8 dealers and the dealers are required by law to 9 -- to report their -- the landings that come 10 into their -- to each -- each dealer. So 11 that's -- that's actually a fairly good -- 12 good -- The landings are fairly good, almost a 13 census of -- of -- of the amount that's -- that 14 is caught. We do do some interviews and -- and 15 to -- to find out where -- where fishermen are 16 catching and how many hours they fish here or 17 fish there. That data could be -- could be 18 improved to allow us to get better handles on 19 catch per unit effort, but even that is a very 20 robust data source and it's gone through 21 many -- many reviews. We -- We have -- Let me 22 tell you, this question has been asked many, 23 many times, and so it has been reviewed, it's 24 been picked over and the flaws have been 25 pointed out and we've certainly tried to deal ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 66 1 with them increasing number of interviews and 2 that sort of thing as -- as best we can. 3 The data that we have, and this is true 4 anywhere, are the data that we have. We -- We 5 have to -- Whatever decision we have to make, 6 we have to make on those. We'd always like to 7 have more data and -- and better data. We -- 8 We would fully recognize that. But you have to 9 go on the data that you have. 10 CHAIRMAN BASS: And basically, the 11 data that we have on the shrimp fishery is -- I 12 think you used the word "robust" in both 13 quantity and the quality is -- is -- is pretty 14 good? 15 DR. ZIMMERMAN: It's -- It's a robust 16 data set. 17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. 18 Any other questions for these gentlemen 19 who were kind enough to -- to share their time 20 and expertise with us? 21 MR. SANSOM: Thank you both very 22 much. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much. 24 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you. 25 DR. NANCE: Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 67 1 CHAIRMAN BASS: We're very 2 appreciative. 3 The chair would also like to take time to 4 recognize the Representative Solis from the 5 Valley has -- has joined us at this morning's 6 hearing, and I understand that we look forward 7 to -- to hearing from him in the afternoon 8 session and we appreciate his participation and 9 interest in what we do. 10 DR. MCKINNEY: Mr. Chairman, at this 11 time, I'd like to introduce Hal Osburn, head of 12 coastal fisheries to lay out before you the 13 staff proposal. 14 MR. OSBURN: Thank you, 15 Mr. Chairman. Members, I'm Hal Osburn, coastal 16 fisheries division director. As you recall, 17 last spring staff completed a comprehensive 18 scientific review and outreach effort for 19 improving the management of shrimp. Following 20 a meeting of the Shrimp Advisory Committee, the 21 Commission's Regulations Committee at their May 22 31st meeting approved a set of proposed shrimp 23 regulations for publication in the 24 Texas Register. Staff held eight public 25 hearings and we were attempting to gather ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 68 1 additional stakeholder input on those 2 proposals. The hearings were well attended, 3 had a wild diversity of opinions, and I would 4 note that Commissioners Watson, Avila, Angelo, 5 and Ryan attended some of these hearings and I 6 thank them for that. And again, in an effort 7 to broaden the outreach process, staff brought 8 together the 12-member Shrimp Advisory 9 Committee for two separate meetings. To 10 enhance these discussions with a greater 11 diversity of stakeholders we also put together 12 a 14-member shrimp working group to be 13 included. 14 Let me summarize the comments that we 15 received this summer. We've had over 5500 16 individual comments. About 80 percent of those 17 were from in-state. Over 85 percent of those 18 comments spoke to the entire package of the 19 shrimp proposals and we had 96 percent of -- of 20 those comments were in favor of the complete 21 set of -- of the proposals. Many individuals 22 also made reference to specific proposals, most 23 numerous were in regards to the -- to the new 24 bay and fishery areas, the gear restrictions in 25 the gulf, and the additional time and area of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 69 1 closures in the gulf. 2 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Osburn, 3 how -- how -- if you said, how many of the -- 4 or what percentage of the favorable comments do 5 you think came from people that are engaged in 6 the commercial fishery. 7 MR. OSBURN: The percent that came 8 from folks that were in the fishery -- 9 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: In the 10 commercial shipping end. 11 MR. OSBURN: I don't -- I don't know 12 if we have -- They didn't -- They didn't 13 necessarily identify themselves, but we did 14 have -- We did have a num -- I would call it a 15 substantial number of folks that spoke in favor 16 of some of the proposals that were engaged in 17 the fishery. 18 This summer's comments period obviously 19 did -- did generate a lot of -- a lot of people 20 with a lot of strong opinions about the shrimp 21 fishery and I don't think that should come as 22 any surprise. 23 First, the -- Shrimp are a very valuable 24 commodity and -- and there has been major 25 capital investment made in an effort to harvest ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 70 1 that commodity. 2 Second, the shrimp fleet has grown in size 3 and scope over the years to the point where 4 it's capable of having major impacts on our 5 public resources and habitats. I think the 6 Commission recognized this when they adopted 7 the Texas Shrimp Fishery Management Plan in 8 1989, and that plan established a clear 9 management strategy and that continues to guide 10 the staff in trying to resolve the problems 11 within the fishery and the conflicts among the 12 stakeholders on this public resource. 13 Very quickly, those management strategies 14 call for accelerating the voluntary license 15 buyback that in the -- in the limited entry 16 program created by the legislature in 1995 17 protecting juvenile shrimp to allow growth to a 18 larger size, greater survival of shrimp to 19 maturity to increase the spawning success and 20 reducing the bycatch of the nontargeted species 21 as we try to manage biodiversity in our bays 22 and gulf. And finally, where possible, 23 increase the harvest efficiencies and 24 opportunities within the fishery. 25 I will tell you that formulating rules to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 71 1 achieve all of these goals is difficult because 2 it's not strictly a biological ecological 3 decision. Sociology and economics have to be 4 factored in. However, after review of all of 5 the relevant public comments and the best 6 scientific information available to us, staff 7 does have some conclusions and recommendations 8 for the Commission. 9 We conclude that there is a valid 10 scientific basis for shrimp overfishing 11 concerns. For example, the increasing trend in 12 the harvest of the smallest size shrimp which 13 documents growth overfishing. Shrimping 14 effort, particularly in the bays has increased 15 dramatically in the last several decades and we 16 believe that that needs to be reversed for 17 long-term benefits. And the declining catch 18 rates in the bay and gulf are a clear 19 indication that a proactive management strategy 20 is warranted. 21 All of the original proposals have some 22 merit in achieving our objectives. But we do 23 believe it's possible to simplify the proposals 24 without sacrificing scientific integrity, so we 25 offer the following revised proposals for ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 72 1 Commission action: 2 First, we would recommend two 3 liberalizations to take effect as soon as 4 possible: Increase the net size for seabobs to 5 34 feet and extend the bait-fish season by 6 adding the month of May. 7 To address conservation needs, the Shrimp 8 Fishery Management Plan basically tells us that 9 time and area closures are the preferred 10 management tools. And I will tell you that 11 thanks to our -- our year-around coastwide 12 department monitoring programs, staff had 13 available to them 17 consecutive years of trawl 14 data to evaluate the -- the areas best suited 15 for looking at area closures for juvenile 16 shrimp nurseries. 17 Let me -- Let me show you an example of 18 those data for Aransas Bay going through the 19 time series of the year. The orange and red 20 dots represent the highest densities of the 21 juveniles and we had -- we looked at these data 22 for the entire coast. Basically these data 23 represent about 27,000 trawl samples taken 24 by -- by this department. 25 With that in mind, we recommend to be ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 73 1 effective by December the adoption of all of 2 the originally proposed new nursery areas and 3 bait bays on the upper coast with the exception 4 of a small decrease in the proposed nursery 5 area in East Bay, which is part of the 6 Galveston bay system and that would allow for 7 the continuation of a small boat bait fishery 8 near that area. On the lower coast, we 9 recommend adoption of all of the original bait 10 and nursery areas. 11 For time closures, we will continue to 12 recommend a shortening of the four-month fall 13 bay system -- bay season by 15 days. The near 14 shore gulf fishery is currently open 8 1/2 15 months of the year. We recommend reducing this 16 by 30 days during the winter, and we would 17 recommend these rules be effective by this 18 December. 19 Bycatch reduction devices are recommended 20 for all trawls except commercial and 21 recreational bait shrimp trawls. And the 22 federal rules for turtle excluder devices in 23 gulf trawls are recommended as state rules as 24 well. And these rules we would recommend 25 delaying until September of 2001. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 74 1 Before showing you the staff 2 recommendation on the Gulf proposals, I'd like 3 to review for you a range of options we 4 received during the comment period. The 5 original proposal created a north and south 6 zone inside of five nautical miles. There was 7 a two-net restriction in the north and a 8 complete closure in the south. We received two 9 proposals from the Vietnamese-American 10 Shrimper's Association. The first suggested a 11 total closure year around within one nautical 12 mile with a stipulation that none of the other 13 bay or gulf proposals be adopted. Their second 14 proposal was to apply the two-net restriction 15 inside of two nautical miles coastwide year 16 around with the previously noted stipulations. 17 The Texas Shrimp Association offered a proposal 18 that prohibited all shrimping inside of seven 19 fathoms from December to July. This depth is 20 about a mile and a half off of South Padre 21 Island, but it stretches out to over nine miles 22 off of the Galveston area. 23 They did support nearly all of the 24 original bay proposals, restrictions and, in 25 fact, they suggested a dead bait quota. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 75 1 Sierra Club and Environmental Defense 2 recommended the five-nautical-mile closure be 3 year around along the whole coast. 4 And two other proposals made included a 5 two-net restriction out to nine nautical miles 6 year around and a total shrimping prohibition 7 out to nine nautical miles year around. 8 And seeking to balance this wide range of 9 stakeholder interest while still achieving our 10 principal management goals, staff offers the 11 following recommendation: 12 The current year around nighttime closure 13 inside of seven fathoms would be changed to 14 five nautical miles. Inside of three nautical 15 miles coastwide the two-net restriction would 16 apply year around. There would be one 17 exception to this standardized rule: In the 18 South Zone from December 1st to July 15th or 19 the opening of the summer gulf season, 20 shrimping would be prohibited inside of five 21 nautical miles. Because shrimping is also 22 closed or would already be closed from 23 December 1st to February 15th and from May 15th 24 to about July 15th, this exception essentially 25 adds only three additional months of closure ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 76 1 from mid-May -- from mid-February to mid-May. 2 We would recommend that the two-net rule 3 take effect next summer when the gulf season 4 opens and that the other closures would be 5 effective by this December. 6 Final staff recommendation would be the 7 adoption of the fee increases as originally 8 proposed. This proposal package, Mr. Chairman, 9 even though it is revised from the original, 10 still offers substantial conservation benefits, 11 and I'd -- I'd had like to highlight a few of 12 those. 13 In combination with the previously adopted 14 $3 fee increase in the salt water stamp, there 15 will a $10 -- There will basically be 16 $10 million available over the next five years 17 to accelerate the voluntary license buyback. 18 If we can achieve our goal and return 19 effort levels to those of the mid '70s, the 20 shrimp fishery can expect substantial increases 21 in their catch per unit effort. Well over 22 1 million acres of marsh, bay, and gulf bottom 23 habitat will receive additional protection 24 from trawling each year with these revised 25 proposals. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 77 1 Bycatch reduction will be substantial. A 2 very conservative estimate of 10 million pounds 3 of all marine species would be saved. In the 4 bays alone, that means millions of blue crabs, 5 Atlantic croaker, sand sea trout. I would note 6 that the lower number on the -- on the flounder 7 actually reflects the stressed condition of our 8 flounder stocks, but 200,000 fish saved is 9 about equivalent to half of the current 10 commercial recreational and -- and commercial 11 and recreational landings combined each year, 12 so it's a substantial number of fish. We would 13 also propose that the Department consider 14 purchasing the initial set of BRDs for the 15 fleet. 16 These rules will also have, in fact, 17 benefits for the shrimp fishery by reducing 18 growth overfishing through the deferred harvest 19 of small shrimp and by increased spawning. 20 In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, as beneficial 21 as these rule changes can be, they still not -- 22 will not have created an ideal shrimp fishery, 23 but it's important to give them a chance to 24 work and we would like to -- to basically 25 monitor their impacts for at least five years ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 78 1 while providing you some regular status 2 reports. We would also like to create better 3 stakeholder dialogue in hopes that 4 co-management with the industry can -- can come 5 closer to reality. We also think it's 6 important that 7 the -- that the industry begin talking about 8 limited entry in the gulf fleet as a way of 9 maximizing benefits to those shrimpers, and at 10 the same time, we want to look to get a better 11 scientific handle on the biodiversity that 12 we -- we know we have in our -- our near shore 13 gulf waters. 14 With that, Mr. Chairman, staff recommends 15 the following motion for referral to the full 16 commission. I'd be happy to answer any 17 questions. 18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions at this 19 time? 20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: How -- How soon 21 would you expect measurable results to be 22 definable if the -- as these rules take 23 effect? 24 MR. OSBURN: Well, you have to deal 25 with the variation that -- that Mother Nature ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 79 1 throws at you every year. That's partly why we 2 recommended five years so that I wouldn't be 3 showing you a year-to-year variation. I'd 4 certainly want to look at it every year, but we 5 think with bycatch that it can be -- you can 6 see that very quickly. We would like to think 7 that we could measure that in our -- our bag 8 seines on the -- some of these juvenile 9 species. 10 DR. MCKINNEY: Commissioner, that's 11 one of the reasons that -- that we would -- I 12 recommended to you that we use some of out 13 buyback -- back funds initially to get those 14 BRDs out there right away so we can see some of 15 those benefits directly. I think that's -- 16 That would be the first area we could see some 17 positive benefits. Commissioner, in one -- You 18 had asked the question about public comments so 19 forth -- and Paul Hammerschmidt tried to put 20 some of that information together and this -- 21 and if I'm -- Paul, if I'm mis -- misquoting 22 this, please correct me, but most of the public 23 input from the industry came during those 24 public hearings and most of that was specific 25 to different issue, but those -- those who ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 80 1 spoke on the rules package as a whole, and we 2 can't really break this down between industry 3 and others, but there were 23 comments in favor 4 of all the rules and 33 opposed to all the 5 rules. That's -- That's the best we can break 6 down from that that gives you some indications. 7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: From the public 8 comments. 9 DR. MCKINNEY: Public comments at 10 those hearings. 11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Ms. Dinkins. 12 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Yes. 13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate 14 your talking about the authority the Commission 15 has for adopting these proposals, and 16 specifically, I would like to know whether we 17 have a basis for regulation on -- for economic 18 reasons. 19 MR. OSBURN: Actually, the -- these 20 rules are promulgated under seven different 21 chapters of the Parks and Wildlife Code. 22 Chapter 47 deals with the commercial fees, 23 which you can regulate. Chapter 61 is the 24 management of all wildlife resources, 66 is 25 finfish management, 67 is the nongame fish and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 81 1 wildlife species, 68 is an endangered and 2 threatened species, Chapter 77 speaks 3 specifically to shrimp, and Chapter 78 is -- is 4 crabs. 5 Chapter 77, in particular, tells us that you 6 can regulate the catching, possession, 7 purchase, and sale of -- of shrimp after 8 adoption of the FMP, the Fishery Management 9 Plan, which was done in 1989. 10 Economics is -- is not to be the sole 11 reason for making rules, but economics was 12 pointed out very clearly in the statute and in 13 the FMP as important to the management balance 14 and that is why optimal yield was given by the 15 legislature to the Department as their goal 16 rather than maximum sustainable yield, which 17 would have been strictly biological. So 18 optimum yield specifically tells us to deal 19 with -- with economics as -- as part of our 20 formula. 21 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Could you 22 summarize what you see as the most important 23 biological reasons for recommending these 24 proposals? 25 MR. OSBURN: Yes, ma'am. It -- It ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 82 1 is -- It is for the -- the long-term risk 2 management. We do have good years and bad 3 years environmentally, but we have a fleet that 4 is, particularly in the Gulf, without limited 5 entry, is increasing its capacity. It's 6 increasing the size of the boats, the numbers 7 of nets, and targeting populations of shrimp 8 that were not targeted historically, and with 9 that uncertainty and those populations, there 10 is a risk of -- of depletion that I think is 11 the most important thing that we ought to deal 12 with is the depletion of the shrimp; 13 secondarily, the bycatch and overall 14 biodiversity in our bays that we have. 15 Frankly, most of us don't know what kind of 16 biodiversity we can have in the bays because we 17 have lived with so many decades of -- of -- of 18 heavy fishing pressure that we don't have the 19 same knowledge of an unfished state, so 20 reducing that bycatch in the bays and in the 21 Gulf will give us an opportunity to -- to 22 return to levels, I think, of productivity for 23 other fisheries that will benefit those other 24 fisheries, recreational, commercial alike. 25 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: And you would ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 83 1 see the authority for addressing the bycatch 2 issue to be contained in what the legislature 3 has given the Commission within the chapters 4 that you cited earlier? 5 MR. OSBURN: Yes, ma'am. That's why 6 we -- we listed -- That's why we listed all of 7 those chapters, crabs, finfish as well as 8 shrimp and the other species, so it's a package 9 when -- when -- when the -- when the fishery 10 operates out there, they don't just take 11 shrimp, and so we have to manage for everything 12 that they are harvesting. 13 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you see 14 these proposals being consistent with the 15 Shrimp fishery management Plan? 16 MR. OSBURN: Absolutely. That is 17 the -- the guideline that we took them from. 18 That's why we simplified them to time and area 19 closures in many cases, but the Shrimp Fishery 20 Management Plan spoke to -- to the goals of 21 every one that -- of these proposals is trying 22 to achieve. 23 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: In talking in 24 terms of a five-year study, are you implying 25 that picking that date that we would not ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 84 1 address this for another five years or is there 2 room in that that if the study indicates that 3 there is some trend of a need-to-need action 4 that you might yet come back within five years 5 to the Commission? 6 MR. OSBURN: The -- Our staff 7 certainly would -- cannot take away your 8 authority to deal issues on an emergency basis 9 or even with new information. What we will -- 10 what I would like to see is a vision of 11 co-management is that the industry when we work 12 with them actually comes forward with 13 recommendations that have a conservation value, 14 but also a benefit for their fishery and the 15 initiative in the next five years for new rules 16 would come from the industry and that we would 17 facilitate that process. This was our 18 initiative. We spent two years on it. We 19 believe that -- that it is good overall for the 20 long-term fishery, but it was obviously a 21 process that -- that once it's gone through 22 needs to be monitored and studied for -- for a 23 while and it's a very large comprehensive 24 package. It's complex and -- and confusing, 25 and -- but it's a very big fishery and it -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 85 1 and it took that to do it, a holistic view on 2 this, and -- and we certainly are -- are ready 3 to -- to sit back and look at it a little 4 closer or we've been looking at it close, but 5 we're -- we're ready to monitor the impacts of 6 what we've done. 7 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Just two more 8 quick things: Do you know what the cost of the 9 BRDs will be? 10 MR. OSBURN: Our best estimate is for 11 the device itself is somewhere between $40 and 12 $50. 13 DR. MCKINNEY: Unless we can buy them 14 in bulk is we get to buy larger. 15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: About how many 16 would you be purchasing? 17 MR. OSBURN: Three to 4,000. 18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you. My 19 other -- My only other item was could we have a 20 copy of the presentation that Dr. Gracia gave 21 us? 22 MR. MCKINNEY: Absolutely. 23 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Especially the 24 time lines. 25 MR. MCKINNEY: Absolutely. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 86 1 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you, 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Well, I'd just 5 like to, you know, say how much I appreciate, 6 and I think the whole Commission does, all the 7 effort that -- that Hal and Larry put into 8 this. You know, I made a comment that I think 9 when Hal started this process, he was 10 six-foot-four and, you know, he's -- he's -- 11 he's really gotten a lot of abuse and, you 12 know, I really appreciate that because, you 13 know, that's something we can't put in your 14 paycheck, but, you know, I think that you've 15 done a great job on continuing to keep us 16 focused on the fact that, you know, this is a 17 resource that residents of Texas, this is not 18 an asset of the shrimping industry, and you 19 know, what we need to do is to maintain the 20 integrity of this fishery for all the residents 21 of Texas. 22 MR. MCKINNEY: Thank you, 23 Commissioner. I would -- I would add to that, 24 too, I've appreciated -- we -- certainly the 25 staff has appreciated the Commission's ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 87 1 attention to this and those of you who could 2 participate and come to these hearings, we 3 greatly appreciate it and I would be remiss if 4 I didn't point out Commissioner Watson. We 5 drug him all over the state and all times and 6 hours of night and I think that -- that has 7 been very valuable for us and supportive and 8 hopefully it has been for you. 9 COMMISSIONER HENRY: May I ask just a 10 general question? Particularly from the 11 hearings, were you able to clear any other 12 deficiencies that may have existed of 13 contradictions in terms of correspondence that 14 we have received either directly or through the 15 hearings with regard to information that was 16 presented? 17 MR. MCKINNEY: Well, I hope so. In 18 that -- that document that's in your packet 19 talking about criticisms, we -- those were some 20 that had consistently come up with either 21 bycatch or agreement with NMFS. Hopefully 22 today we've -- we've addressed and adequate -- 23 addressed adequately the issue at National 24 Marine Fishery Service and some of the others. 25 Right. Yes, I think we did, and we learned a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 88 1 lot. In the proposal that's before you from -- 2 that Hal and the staff has put together now 3 reflects -- reflects that input that occurred 4 at those times and so hopefully it does do 5 that. 6 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I've been, and 7 I think the whole Commission's been quite 8 concerned about the impression that we've 9 gotten that the people in the shrimping 10 industry, at least a goodly number of them, 11 have come to question the -- the sincerity of 12 our approach or the Department's approach, the 13 fairness, the hidden agendas and so on, and I 14 think one of the maybe good things that's come 15 out of this so far, at least, is that staff and 16 the Commission have, I think, clearly 17 demonstrated a strong effort to dispel that 18 concern, but obviously it's still present, and 19 so I think it's extremely important that for 20 the success of this whole effort and for what 21 you and Mr. Osburn has stated as his goal to 22 have subsequent activity be a team effort, if 23 that's going to occur, we're going to have to 24 do more to establish a feeling of trust again 25 between the industry and the Department that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 89 1 isn't there today. 2 And to the extent that what we say has any 3 bearing on that, I think all of us would -- 4 would say immediately that we do not have a 5 hidden agenda, that our concern is about the -- 6 the assets, as Commissioner Watson has said, 7 that belong to the state as a whole, but we 8 certainly recognize that each part of that -- 9 of the stakeholders has -- has an equal right 10 to their part of it, and -- and there's no 11 intent to do harm to the shrimping industry 12 itself. In fact, what we're trying to do, if 13 we do it correctly, will end up benefiting the 14 commercial industry. So if they don't believe 15 that, if there's a complete lack of trust, then 16 it's going to be very difficult to reach the -- 17 the goals that we're all seeking. 18 DR. MCKINNEY: Point well taken and 19 heard, sir. Appreciate it. 20 CHAIRMAN BASS: If there will not any 21 other questions of comments at this time, we do 22 have eight individuals that we've invited to 23 give comments representing some of the 24 stakeholders in this issue. Obviously, 25 we're, in our public hearing this afternoon, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 90 1 going to have opportunity to hear from -- from 2 far larger numbers of people with interests in 3 the shrimping issue as well as -- as other 4 issues before the Department. 5 Given the -- the fact that our public 6 hearing is set to start at -- at one o'clock 7 and between now and then the Commission's 8 agenda includes a finance meeting as well as an 9 executive session, I'm going to ask those that 10 we've invited to -- to speak on the panel to 11 please keep your comments as succinct as 12 possible. We're not going to have the traffic 13 light system running formally, but if you could 14 try to limit yourself to three minutes or so. 15 That would allow us to get through this section 16 in a -- in a half hour of time and not 17 inconvenience those people who are planning to 18 show up here at one o'clock for the beginning 19 of a public meeting by setting our entire 20 schedule back too far. 21 That said, I'm going to ask two of you 22 to -- to come at a time simply because we have 23 two chairs and two microphones and we can kind 24 of switch off as we go and be as expedient as 25 possible, and this is not any effort to -- to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 91 1 create any alliances or anything here. I'm 2 simply going to call you two at a time in the 3 order that -- that your names are on the sheet 4 in front of me, so it's completely random, but 5 if Julius Collins representing the Texas Shrimp 6 Association and Richard Moore from PISCES could 7 please come forward and -- and give us what 8 comments that -- that you have at an expedient 9 manner, and, of course, obviously you'd be 10 welcome to speak this afternoon and tomorrow on 11 this -- this issue as -- as public comment 12 allows. 13 You have the floor. 14 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, very much, 15 Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I'm 16 Julius Collins, president of the Texas Shrimp 17 Association and I'm an owner of offshore gulf 18 trawlers. My family has been in the shrimp 19 harvesting business for over 100 years, so I'm 20 not new at the game. My statement today is to 21 advise that the Texas Shrimp Association 22 supports status quo, no shrimp to be taken by 23 the Regulation Committee on the proposed shrimp 24 regulation. First, my reason for status quo 25 there are too many discrepancies between the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 92 1 Department's data, National Marine Fishery's 2 data and the shrimp fishery data that needs to 3 be clarified. We see no scientific basis to 4 conclude that the Texas shrimp fishery will 5 collapse. Second, TSA testified before the 6 Senate Natural Resource Committee and outlined 7 the misrepresentation of the Department of the 8 data and the graph used to justify the 9 decision. We submitted a copy for the record. 10 Other fisheries' biologists have presented 11 testimony at public hearings references and 12 discrepancies and misrepresentation of the data 13 by the Department. 14 Third, we have experienced changing after 15 change, in addition, deletions and 16 modifications to the proposal. We have 17 prepared and presented testimony explanation 18 and we made recommendation. I don't know if 19 the recommendations were exactly what TSA has 20 done, I don't believe it was, but we did make 21 recommendation. And I'm not -- I'm here today 22 again to plead and address even more minutes 23 changed of the proposal. 24 I want to bring to your attention that the 25 current shrimp data selected by the lead agent, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 93 1 NMFS, which you saw two members here and they 2 presented real well, brown shrimp remains the 3 dominant species throughout the years 1960 4 through now. Overall, catch per unit of 5 effort, CPUE that he talked about for the 6 shrimp had declined since 1960; however, the 7 last ten years it is coming back and has 8 increased. 9 Overall fishing effort for brown shrimp 10 has declined or -- by 35 percent in the Gulf. 11 Fishing effort has declined by 35 percent. 12 Recruitment levels for 1998 and 1999 were the 13 highest since 1991. Parent stock levels for 14 brown shrimp were up in 1999 over 300 million. 15 That's the parent stock. The overfishing 16 transfer is only 125 million. 17 Fishing effort for white shrimp has also 18 declined. Parent stock for that species is 19 around 800 mill -- million. The level above -- 20 in the rare overfishing traphold is only 21 330 million. 22 Growth overfishing occurs throughout the 23 five -- five Gulf states and Mexico, not just 24 Texas. There has been accepted practice to 25 meet consumption further for a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 94 1 supply-and-demand market for all-sized 2 category. 3 Let me go down and we'll skip a few, so I 4 can hurry up with this. The Department's 5 report failed to note that in the event or an 6 indication of a species collapse, there was 7 safeguards already placed on the Gulf of Mexico 8 Fishery's Management Council, which -- a plan 9 which Dr. Zimmerman related to you, and this 10 you can have the complete data on this. 11 Sea turtles. The environmentalists refuse 12 to accept that the shrimp fishery has met the 13 mandate for sea turtle devices, turtle excluder 14 device, on the Endangered Spec Act -- Species 15 Act, and the fisheries operate on the Section 7 16 consolation with the biology group opinion that 17 allows an incidental take. 18 More turtles are killed by cold weather 19 speedboat props, shark bites, dredging, 20 recreational and commercial hook and line, 21 entangle of monofilament lines and even gill 22 nets than there are with shrimp trawls now. 23 There should be no recommendation for the 24 Department to close area for shrimp in Texas 25 territory or sea to protect sea turtles. If ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 95 1 that be the case, then the Parks and Wildlife 2 Department should put that in a no-take zone 3 where nobody could take not only the shrimp 4 boats should be affected, everybody that's 5 detrimental to the sea turtle should be 6 affected, also. 7 We believe the Department should be 8 advising committee that sea turtle population 9 are healthy and recovering. Rancho Nuevo in 10 Mexico, over 6,000 nests this year compared to 11 3,000 last year. That's 100 percent increase. 12 The general public seems never to get the 13 message that no matter what precautions are 14 taken, there will be sea turtles spawning -- 15 nesting and stranding that will occur 16 throughout the United States' gulf -- States' 17 coastal states. 18 In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, this proposed 19 shrimp regulation has created a barrage of 20 e-mail, as you've seen so many people against, 21 and Internet and faxed comments from people 22 throughout the nation that have no concept of 23 its contents, but simply to show numbers in 24 support or opposition to apply peer pressure 25 on -- for personal agenda gains. The Gulf ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 96 1 Council and National Marine Fishery Service 2 adopted a policy: Written comments and 3 proposals must be mailed to the designated 4 agency proposing the rules. Comments may also 5 be submitted via fax with the original 6 immediately followed by mail. Comments will 7 not be accepted if submitted by e-mail or 8 Internet. We recommend the Department and 9 Commission honor this policy and remove all 10 e-mails, Internets, and faxes that do not have 11 supporting original by mail as invalid comments 12 on these proposed shrimp regulations. 13 And that concludes my presentation. I'll 14 try to answer questions if you-all have. 15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Collins, I 16 appreciate your efforts to -- to be a speed 17 speaker. 18 MR. COLLINS: I'm not -- I'm not used 19 to being a speed speaker. In fact, I -- I'm 20 very slow. 21 CHAIRMAN BASS: I was very -- I think 22 we're all able to -- to, as you were speaking, 23 read over some of the parts that you -- that 24 you omitted from your -- your verbal 25 presentation and your -- your handout and I ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 97 1 appreciate that. 2 Are there any direct questions for 3 Mr. Collins prior to hearing Mr. Moore's 4 comments? 5 Thank you very much, sir. 6 MR. COLLINS: Thank you very much. 7 CHAIRMAN BASS: I appreciate you 8 coming. 9 MR. COLLINS: You want me to stay 10 with you and fight? No. 11 CHAIRMAN BASS: No. Actually, I'm 12 going to ask you to give your chair up for 13 Jimmy Evans who can come and -- and -- 14 MR. COLLINS: All right. 15 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- get himself 16 situated while we hear from Mr. Moore. 17 The floor is yours, Mr. Moore. 18 MR. MOORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 My name is Richard Moore and I'm representing 20 mostly a bay inshore fishery. First of all, 21 I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the 22 Parks and Wildlife for helping us in what we 23 had a real crisis. Since our season opened 24 August the 15th, Galveston Bay has been covered 25 up with the bryzoan sea grass. Through the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 98 1 efforts of the fishermen and Parks and 2 Wildlife, we petitioned the National Marine 3 Fisheries to give us an exemption from the 4 TEDs, and even the director of law enforcement 5 called me and says he'd never seen the federal 6 government move so fast. So it was with the 7 efforts of Parks and Wildlife and others, and 8 we want to take this time to thank them because 9 it does mean an awful lot to the fishermen of 10 Galveston Bay. 11 Now, to the business at hand. We've sat 12 here around we've heard, Mr. Osburn, Mr. Nance, 13 the scientists that -- that take care of these 14 fisheries. What I would like to have done is 15 started this back 18 months ago whenever we 16 could have had talks with these agencies, the 17 fishermen. We have a thing in place right now 18 called the Shrimp Advisory Committee that was 19 not utilized and we don't understand why. All 20 this was done and the fishermen knew absolutely 21 nothing about it. That's where we're talking 22 about trust comes in. The Shrimp Advisory 23 Committee, and there's also a review board 24 that's been elected by the peers is in 25 operation and works with Parks and Wildlife, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 99 1 but they saw fit to ignore us and the Shrimp 2 Advisory Plan Committee. They went to the 3 environmental groups. They knew -- They knew 4 more about our business than we did, and I 5 don't think that's right, and that's where 6 trust comes in. 7 The modification of the plan, the original 8 plans is something that can be dealt with and 9 it needs to be dealt with. We do not have a 10 biological problem in our shrimp -- in our 11 shrimp fishery. Are we headed that way? I 12 don't know. 13 You know, someone said if the first time 14 man went back and got the second shrimp because 15 he liked to eat it we were headed toward 16 overfishing. You walk out that door and you 17 take two steps to the north, you're headed to 18 the North Pole. It don't mean you're going to 19 get there. I don't know. 20 I'm a fisherman. Sometimes I don't even 21 know what it takes to catch them. You try, but 22 I've seen if you look on your back pages of 23 that little thing I just gave you, from 1960 to 24 1999, nobody knows what they do, because if 25 you'll at the predictions and the catch rate, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 100 1 none of it's ever the same. You go from good 2 years to bad years. I don't care who manages 3 this resource. Unless you simply annihilate 4 it, the habitat, and pollute it, I don't know 5 what you'll do with it. 6 I'm asking this Commission to be very 7 careful whenever you vote to be sure you know 8 all the facts, know these definitions, growth 9 overfishing, recruitment overfishing, 10 allocation, because that's where this is 11 boiling down to is allocation. The mass is 12 there, the product is there, we have no 13 problem. A lot of the time we have problem 14 finding it because those little devils just 15 disappear. There's nothing we can do about 16 that. We have had a drought problem. We 17 have -- I have been fishing for over 40 years 18 and it's nothing that I hadn't seen before, and 19 you know how to deal with that. 20 My question to you is be very careful 21 because you're dealing with a lot of people's 22 lives. This is an allocation problem. It 23 always has been. So when I -- Whenever you 24 vote, I ask you to be informed and to vote your 25 conscience. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 101 1 Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions for 3 Mr. Moore? 4 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you, 5 Mr. Chairman. Exactly what do you think the 6 impact of the current proposal will be on the 7 shrimp fishery? 8 MR. MOORE: Just a few quick facts. 9 With the closure of water, if passed, 10 57 percent of Texas bays will be off limits to 11 bay shrimp licensed holders. That's 57 percent 12 of the water that we have to work in will no 13 longer be available to bay licensed holders. 14 Bait license holders, yes, but not bay license 15 holders. You know, it -- it kind of makes you 16 nervous whenever you look at these -- some of 17 these proposals and you wonder where they come 18 from. 19 And like I said, I've been shrimping for 20 over 40 years and to come from where I came 21 from where everything was open, nothing was 22 sacred, 24-hour shrimping, we went through a 23 time frame in -- in the '80s with the influx of 24 the Asian community, our inshore fishery went 25 up to over 5,000 boats. That's way too many. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 102 1 Five-thousand-two-hundred-and-something 2 licenses were issued in 1981 through 1984. 3 That's too many. Nobody can sustain that. 4 Attrition took over and the license 5 started coming down. In 1995, we developed 6 limited entry. Limited entry was going to be 7 the panacea. We get that, boy, and we've got 8 it, no more problems. We've got that and it's 9 working. We have reduced -- We have reduced 10 shrimping effort in our bays by 74.7 percent 11 since 1984. Seventy -- 74.7 percent. 12 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Mr. Moore, 13 excuse me. My question was a direct one. 14 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. 15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: What do you 16 see the economic impact or other impact -- 17 MR. MOORE: Economic impact? 18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Yes. I want 19 to know what the actual impact is. I 20 appreciate the statistics -- 21 MR. MOORE: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: -- but I want 23 to know the actual impact you anticipate. 24 MR. MOORE: Well, with less -- With 25 less area to work, less time to work, we'll ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 103 1 have less money. 2 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you 3 disagree then with the -- the statement that I 4 understood Dr. Zimmerman to make about there 5 would be -- with less effort that you would 6 still have a good amount of catch? I forget 7 the exact statement, but I'm sure that you 8 probably heard it, also. 9 MR. MOORE: See, in our bay systems, 10 we are -- we are so regulated already, we -- 11 we -- we have so much limited time to work, 12 four months out of the year we can only -- I 13 think it's four -- you can only work till 14 two o'clock. Our main season, which they want 15 to pull 15 days away from it, December -- end 16 of the season at December the 1st, we only have 17 four months in our main season, August 15th to 18 December the 15th. Now we're going to lose 19 15 days of that. It's economics. 20 If -- If the fishermen theirselves could 21 see in the long run, in the long term, a 22 benefit of this, but we don't see one. Our 23 numbers are steady going down. We have less 24 than 1400 boats in the fishery today in the 25 inshore fishery, and that's a long way from ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 104 1 coming from 5,000. And limited entry is alive 2 and doing well. Now, it may not be as fast as 3 some people would like it to be, and -- and I'm 4 sure it's money. We did not like -- We did not 5 see CCA for $3 on their stamps and that's -- 6 that's a -- That's a bad mistake anyway because 7 they've already deleted their main source, 8 which is a combo license and they don't pay the 9 $3. You know, we're getting a bad rap on that, 10 I feel. 11 Closures, any closure is not a way to 12 manage a resource. I would like to sit down 13 and see if there's something else couldn't be 14 done. We looked at mesh size. We looked at 15 other things. We've even agreed, but they've 16 been deleted. I wish that these -- these 17 proposals could have been done a long time ago 18 before -- and why we have a cutoff date of this 19 time when we have to do it right now, right 20 now. We have to -- You-all have to make this 21 decision. 22 And I'm confused about that because I 23 don't know because March 22nd we didn't have 24 any proposals. 25 And to clarify one other fact, if I may, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 105 1 that the conflict between National Marine 2 Fisheries and Parks and Wildlife, that -- that 3 was first brought out and that needs to be 4 clarified. There's no -- There's no conflict 5 in the data. The data's the same. The 6 conflict is the interpretation of the data, and 7 when we looked at the newspapers and all we 8 could read was our industry is about to 9 collapse, the director of fisheries even stated 10 in a Senate Natural Resource Committee hearing, 11 We will catch the last shrimp. That statement 12 was made. 13 Now, I don't know why anybody would make 14 that statement because who could afford to go 15 catch the last shrimp. It costs a lot of money 16 to run those boats. I'm sorry. I got -- 17 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you, 18 Mr. Moore. 19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, 20 Mr. Moore. 21 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you, 22 Mr. Chairman. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Brian Sybert, if 24 you'd come up and be prepared to speak while we 25 hear from Mr. Evans. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 106 1 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. Thank you for 2 having me. Having been in the business for 3 many, many years I also know a little bit about 4 the shrimping industry. I also have been on 5 the Advisory Committee for many years, and I 6 don't know how to say this, but I was a little 7 embarrassed to see our group vote completely 8 against the original proposals with me being 9 the exception, and then after we spend our time 10 in a couple more of these meetings, a bunch of 11 the proposals that you see from the gulf 12 industry right on that screen a few minutes ago 13 were in those original proposals. The original 14 set of proposals were outstanding in my 15 opinion. I've actually said a couple of times 16 that I think that that's where we out to be. I 17 don't particularly agree with the final rules 18 here. I would rather us have the original set 19 of proposals. 20 The -- The original set of proposals were 21 pretty well defined. I wasn't satisfied with 22 those because I've always said ever since I've 23 been on this committee that the bait license 24 that was put in effective about 1959 was for 25 only to provide bait for the fishing public of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 107 1 Texas, and I've said for many years now that I 2 think that the bait license is still being very 3 muchly abused. Having said that, I'll go on. 4 The shrimp season in the Gulf of Mexico 5 has -- looks like it's very, very good. I have 6 an opinion of that for a reason: I actually 7 was in my car before thinking about any of 8 this. This year I picked up the phones, we had 9 tremendous floods before the bay season 10 opened. All of the shrimp in my opinion got 11 forced to the Gulf of Mexico. We're having an 12 outstanding year in the Gulf of Mexico. I 13 believe the floods pushed those shrimp there. 14 We're having a decline in the bay. There 15 again, this is my opinion, okay, but we do have 16 an outstanding season in the Gulf of Mexico. 17 That could be an explanation, but it also backs 18 up the fact that if it is true, all the more 19 reason that we have to not overfish in the bay 20 so we have that escapement to the Gulf to 21 produce a viable fishery. I believe that. 22 The -- The proposal to close the lower 23 gulf for an environmental turtle reason I 24 thought was outstanding. I had asked the 25 people on a scale of one to ten how significant ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 108 1 was this five-mile closure to the protection of 2 the turtle and the answer was nine. That's 3 pretty significant. If we don't do 4 something -- We have turtle excluder devices 5 that all of the shrimp industry said we'd never 6 have, but we have them. 7 Maybe if we don't do something in our own 8 state, which we should manage ourself, the 9 federal government will come back and try to do 10 more that really will be a lot more detrimental 11 to our fishery. 12 I would much rather have the five-mile 13 closure and get a rating from the people on the 14 other side, so to speak, of a nine on a scale 15 of one to ten opposed to coming back later and 16 the federal government try to close it for 17 15 miles. 18 So I support the five-mile closure on the 19 lower gulf, which was in the original 20 proposal. 21 The -- The turtle deal naturally has not a 22 lot of effect on the shrimp fishery, but we do 23 have turtle excluders in the Gulf of Mexico, 24 and if we can help protect the turtle and we're 25 only restricting an area that has produced less ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 109 1 than 2 percent of the catch of the Gulf 2 fishery, I would say that that's pretty good. 3 And that's all I have for you today. 4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir. 5 Questions or comments? 6 Thank you, Mr. Evans. Ms. Vu, if you'd 7 please come forward and prepare yourself to 8 speak while we hear from Mr. Sybert. 9 MR. SYBERT: Mr. Chairman -- 10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Wait, Sybert. 11 MR. SYBERT: Sybert. I'm Brian 12 Sybert with the Lone Star Chapter of the Sierra 13 Club. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, 14 thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'd 15 like to open my comments by thanking 16 Commissioner Watson for attending the shrimp 17 working group meetings and many of the public 18 hearings. It's good to have a commissioner 19 there actually in the trenches grappling with 20 the difficult issue that everybody has been for 21 the last year. 22 I'd also like to thank the other 23 commissioners who took the time to also attend 24 several of the public hearings. I think that 25 was a very useful endeavor. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 110 1 About the regulations that we have before 2 us today, I feel that what we have in front of 3 us right now is basically a compromise. The 4 original regulations have been weakened 5 basically in an effort to try to get more input 6 buy-in from the shrimp industry and not the 7 shrimp industry entirely, because there are 8 members of the shrimp industry who do support 9 the proposed regulations. But there are 10 certain members of the shrimp industry who 11 simply we will never be able to appease, never 12 be able to get input or buy-in from. We'll 13 never please Julius Collins from Texas Shrimp 14 Association. We're never going to please 15 Richard Moore. They are opposed to the 16 regulations. No matter how much we compromise 17 them, they're going to be opposed to them. 18 Given that, I would urge the Commission to 19 go back to the original regulations, the 20 regulations that were intact before this last 21 Friday, before the final compromise and approve 22 those regulations. That set of regulations 23 are the ones that include -- included the 24 year-round, five-nautical-mile closure on the 25 southern portion of the Texas coast. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 111 1 Parks and Wildlife staff did the right 2 thing from the beginning. We had the science 3 and the public support. The two critical 4 elements for implementing these proposed 5 regulations and strong -- I would say we 6 always continued to advocate for stronger 7 regulations. I would say the original 8 regulations I would place as being fairly 9 moderate, but a good step that needed to be 10 taken. 11 With -- Given the science, we know there's 12 no discrepancies. We've heard from the 13 experts. We have a 49- -- or a 39-year 14 database indicating declines in the shrimp 15 fishery. We have bycatch studies indicating 16 significant impacts to recreational sports 17 fish, to commercial fish, economically 18 viable -- economically significant fish, 19 endangered species of sea turtles and impacts 20 to bottom habitats. The science is -- is 21 there. It's confirmed. There's no point in 22 arguing or debating it anymore. We can throw 23 as many facts and figures. We've heard today 24 from the experts and we know it's in. 25 We have the public support. 96 percent of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 112 1 the comments received by Parks and Wildlife 2 were in favor, not of the weakened version of 3 the regulations that we have now before us, but 4 for the version of the regulations that were 5 published in the Texas Register. The public 6 supports the stronger regulations, not the 7 weaker regulations. The science supports the 8 stronger regulations, not the weaker 9 regulations. 10 Given that, I would urge the Commission to 11 move forward with the original set of 12 regulations as published, or you would say, 13 because there were some things made that we're 14 not going to have significant problems with, 15 but I would say the -- I would urge the 16 Commission to move forward with the regulations 17 that came out of the last shrimp working group 18 meeting, which did include the year-round, 19 five-nautical-mile closure. Again, with that 20 closure, we're going to see significant 21 decreases in bycatch, we're going to protect 22 bottom habitat, we will protect and go a long 23 way towards taking care of the sea turtle 24 problem that is going to be out there lingering 25 if we don't deal with it correctly now. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 113 1 And unfortunately, if we don't implement 2 strong regulations and deal with it adequately 3 at this moment, we're going to have to re -- 4 revisit this issue again and again and again, 5 and it's going to be a heck of a lot more 6 painful going back through it again and again 7 than this whole process has been. This has 8 been a very difficult, but important process 9 that has had to be dealt with. 10 So given that, again, we've got the 11 science, we've got the public support. Let's 12 do it right the first time around. Let's 13 implement the regulations that were intact as 14 of the last shrimp working group meeting and 15 implement the year-round, five-nautical-mile 16 closure and the nursery areas in the bay, which 17 are very significant for protecting those -- 18 the bottom habitat and reducing bycatch in that 19 area. 20 And again thank you for the opportunity to 21 speak and thanks. 22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. Jeff 23 Newell, if you'd come forward and prepare 24 yourself. 25 And Ms. Vu, the floor is yours. Thank ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 114 1 you. 2 MS. VU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 3 and members of the Commission and Mr. Sansom 4 for giving me the time to speak and a 5 sincere appreciation and thank you for 6 Commissioner Watson and all to attend a public 7 meeting down in our area. 8 My name is Twi Vu and I'm here today to 9 represent and speak on behalf of the 10 Vietnamese-American Shrimper Association, also 11 known and VASA. I have my written comments 12 there. It is pretty lengthy, but I'm going to 13 go to the main -- highlight the main issue. 14 After careful -- careful review and 15 consideration of the new shrimp group proposal, 16 our association cannot help, but conclude that 17 these proposed rules are without scientific 18 basis, VASA is committed to responsible 19 stewardship for our marine resource. 20 Although we have not agreed with Texas 21 Parks and Wildlife's assessment of the 22 biological concern for the shrimp and sea 23 turtle resource, we have made a good faith 24 effort to negotiate some type of conservation 25 compromise. Again, we would like to reiterate ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 115 1 what we have proposed. It's the one-mile 2 closure that prohibits all shrimp trawling from 3 the beach seaward to one nautical mile and 4 extending to the U.S.-Mexican border to the 5 Texas-Louisiana boundary. This proposal will 6 benefit growth in the bay. 7 The closed area will provide a spawning 8 refuge for the white shrimp. The white shrimp 9 often spawn in a very -- in or very close to 10 the surf, which is inside the 1 1/2 -- one 11 mile. A total closure will provide a cushion 12 for fishing effort and additional protection to 13 spawning adults, especially during the period 14 when the gulf shrimp season opened. 15 A significant number of late spawning 16 females will be protected for the very first 17 time ever in the history of shrimp management. 18 It will also provide protection for small brown 19 shrimp during spring and summer. This is in 20 conclusion with a lot of the fishermen 21 experience out there. This closure will 22 also provide additional protection for the 23 sea turtle, also provide protection for many 24 finfish species and invertebrates that utilize 25 the near shore area as habitat. An enforcement ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 116 1 of a closed area would be immensely simplified. 2 Enforcement wouldn't be too hard if the area's 3 just closed. 4 When we presented our conservation plan 5 earlier in the month, we were told that it is a 6 more severe measure than the current published 7 rules and could not be legally inacted by the 8 TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION at this 9 time. 10 We are compelled to response that we 11 believe that our plan is more logical and 12 responsible than the proposed rules. Our 13 organization believes that significant 14 ecological benefit can be derived from our 15 proposal without the economic hardship that 16 will be realized from the Texas Parks and 17 Wildlife proposal. 18 If you cannot enact our proposal at this 19 time, then we strongly request that you delay 20 any shrimp rules until our plan can be 21 considered. We have made a sincere effort to 22 work with this Department and we ask that the 23 Commission at least give us the courtesy of the 24 full consideration of a one-mile closure and we 25 request that a written statement be made a part ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 117 1 of the record. 2 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of 3 the Commission. 4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, ma'am. 5 For clarification, do you -- As part of your 6 proposal, what was your proposal concerning the 7 bay regulations? 8 MS. VU: The bay, as we go back to 9 the beginning, with National Marine Fishery 10 saying there is overgrowth fishing. We see 11 that -- The only thing that we see in there is, 12 like, the count size which need to be adopt -- 13 to address overgrowth. But the bait, they 14 cannot afford any more water closure. They -- 15 They are down to the, you know, to such a small 16 shrimping area already, and their time in 17 shrimping is not very long. They only have 18 three months during the spring or, you know, 19 spring season and then about four months during 20 the summer season, but then you have to take 21 into consideration of the weather that permit 22 them of going out or not. 23 But to address the overgrowth fishing, 24 yes, that's what we see that, you know, the 25 count side come in as an issue. I mean, as ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 118 1 a -- 2 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Method to 3 address? 4 MS. VU: Yes. Yes, sir. Thank you. 5 And for the Gulf, on the net restriction, our 6 people and some of the Americans that live our 7 area, shrimp the white shrimp most of the time 8 and we make a living, say, 80 percent of the, 9 you know, on white shrimping. 10 And the white shrimp stay around the two 11 miles and the three-mile zone, and if we -- if 12 they restrict the net, yes, we will be a -- you 13 know, we will make every attempt to adapt our 14 boat -- I mean, make the boat to go inside 15 there and fish. 16 That's why we feel like the net 17 restriction is not going to help because it's 18 just going to create more effort inside there 19 because they're catching a little bit more. 20 That's why we feel that, you know, if you 21 restrict to three mile, that means you cut us 22 completely out that shrimping area. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. Other 24 questions or comments for Ms. Vu at this time? 25 Thank you very much, ma'am. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 119 1 MS. VU: Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Kevin Daniels, if 3 you'd come forward and be prepared while we 4 hear from Mr. Newell. 5 MR. NEWELL: All right. Dear ladies 6 and gentlemen of the Commission. First, let me 7 thank the Parks and Wildlife for giving me this 8 extraordinary opportunity to be here to voice 9 my opinion on the regulations being proposed. 10 I am here to talk about the gulf waters and the 11 two-net law proposal. I own and operate a 12 73-foot gulf trawler, so I live and breathe 13 shrimping every day. I've been shrimping for 14 25 years and have seen many changes in the 15 industry. 16 Changes are sometimes good and sometimes 17 not. For instance, the use of air 18 conditioning, better deck lighting, better 19 safety gear, the GPS with computer navigation, 20 these are good changes. But the buildup of big 21 vessels with large amounts of horsepower 22 pulling four 60- to 80-foot trawls that use 23 huge, heavy trawl doors, heavy chains, and very 24 often shrimping around the clock I have found 25 not to be a good change for our coastal ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 120 1 environment, especially the near shore waters 2 and certainly not for an extended period of 3 time. 4 The trawl design has improved over the 5 years. The use of spectrum webbing, this is a 6 lightweight, strong, easy-to-tow webbing. This 7 webbing has allowed boats without big 8 horsepower to tow with larger nets. I know 9 this because I have used the webbing to go from 10 pulling 4 40-foot nets to 4 50-foot trawls. 11 The availability to low-interest loans has 12 made it possible to refurbish old boats or buy 13 bigger new boats, so as competition -- as the 14 competition has increased, this has created an 15 atmosphere of get-all-you-can-get-today, 16 because if you do not, someone else will. 17 So you see that there are many factors 18 involved in shrimping and it is at this time, I 19 believe, we are pushing the limit of harvest on 20 our near-shore shrimp. The two-net law is a 21 fair, efficient means to addressing this 22 problem. 23 There are some in the industry who have 24 made claims that this law would cost them their 25 jobs and loss of income. I do not believe this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 121 1 to be true. I do believe this will create 2 changes in the way we work our boats. Some of 3 the boats may decide to shrimp offshore where 4 they are allowed to pull the four trawls, but 5 this law would level the playing field 6 indiscriminately allowing anyone, regardless of 7 race, size of boat, or anything else, providing 8 that they have a Texas gulf license, the right 9 to work and harvest shrimp. 10 The truth is that because the 11 near-shore -- the near-shore effort has grown 12 so fast so furiously that I have personally 13 experienced a decline in income and have been 14 forced to look offshore for a better catch. 15 For many years, I was what we in the 16 business refer to as a white shrimper, 17 shrimping the shallower water, but I've found I 18 cannot compete with the numerous large boats 19 pulling their very large trawls, and to be 20 honest, have not seen the amount of white 21 shrimp that we had in the past. And if some 22 shrimp do show up, there are just too many 23 boats working those shrimp. 24 Therefore, if you do not implement this 25 law, many like myself will be forced out of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 122 1 business or will have to try to survive on a 2 much smaller income. So the very essence of 3 this law provides some conservation, and at the 4 same time, preserving he Texas shrimp 5 industry. 6 And by the way, the desire for this law is 7 not new to the industry. This is a law that 8 has been wanted for quite sometime. So -- We 9 have had net restrictions in our bays for a 10 long time, so it would seem appropriate for our 11 state outside waters as well. 12 I realize Parks and Wildlife has heard 13 more shrimpers against this law than for it, 14 but I believe the majority have not been heard 15 from one way or the other. And some simply 16 trust the Department to do the right thing. 17 I think it is important to stay with the 18 five-mile Northern Zone package. This amount 19 of mileage will give the shrimp the area needed 20 to sustain an adequate population. Plus, this 21 zone provides more conservation or finfish and 22 see turtles. Going only out to three miles 23 like putting a small Band-aid on a huge wound, 24 but it's still better than nothing. 25 As for the Southern Zone, it would seem ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 123 1 better to leave it as the first proposal or 2 close from the beach out to three miles 3 year-round and require no more than two nets 4 from four to five miles out subject to the same 5 seasonal openings and closures as in the 6 Northern Zone. Thank you. 7 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, 8 Mr. Newell. 9 Any questions at this time from 10 Mr. Newell? 11 Thank you. Appreciate your insights. 12 Kevin Daniels. 13 Ray Allen, would you come up and be ready 14 to speak after we hear from Mr. Daniels, 15 please. 16 The floor is yours, Kevin. 17 MR. DANIELS: Thank you, 18 Mr. Chairman. Again, my name is Kevin Daniels 19 and I'm with CCA Texas. Since Mr. Moore kind 20 of opened the door on the subject, I'd like to 21 clarity one point he made or one comment he 22 made that that $3 increase in the saltwater 23 stamp as you're all aware doesn't just affect 24 the 40,000 CCA members, but the 600,000 25 saltwater stamp buyers, so it's quite a bit ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 124 1 larger public. I'd like to say I think a lot 2 of these, a lot of this discussion has been 3 about the fear of the unknown, fear of change. 4 Certainly recognizing that the industry 5 and -- and these people's livelihood are going 6 to change or could change, a lot of unknown 7 there, and I'd like to draw an analogy, if I 8 let me. 9 The analogy is with air bags in the auto 10 industry. When they were first proposed, 11 nobody wanted them. They were not going to be 12 profitable, a loss of profitability to the 13 industry. But the science was there, the data 14 was there. It was -- It was the right thing to 15 do, but those air bags were put into cars not 16 with the knowledge that you would be in a 17 wreck, but based on the possibility that you 18 might be in a wreck. 19 So the unknown is -- is -- There's really 20 no way to predict that, but I think if we talk 21 about the possibility of overfishing, it does 22 exist, just as the possibility you might have 23 been in an auto accident existed, and you need 24 to take some precautionary measures and I think 25 that's we're really talking about here. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 125 1 As I know, we're really walking on a lot 2 of plowed ground here, I won't -- I won't 3 burden you with many details, but I'd only say 4 that CCA supports all of the proposed 5 regulation changes as now modified. 6 I would genuinely like to thank the Texas 7 Parks and Wildlife staff and the Commissioners 8 as well as members of the shrimping industry 9 who I believe -- I genuinely believe who've 10 honestly worked openly and hard over the last 11 three months certainly anyway to try to come up 12 with some reasonable solutions for some really 13 difficult problems. 14 I would -- I would hope that everybody 15 would at some time come to believe that -- that 16 we're truly in this together, rebuild a sense 17 of trust, as you -- as you mentioned earlier. 18 That will -- That will take some time, but I 19 think that the dialogue that's already begun 20 needs to continue doing that. 21 But I really would say that the industry, 22 the shrimping industry in Texas, needs to -- 23 needs to understand that their profitability is 24 not necessarily in the best interest of the 25 public. And the public should also conversely ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 126 1 understand that -- that the shrimping industry 2 is not the single largest evil of our marine 3 resources. We must all contribute to the 4 conservation of this resource. 5 You know, conservation is a burden and I 6 think it's reasonable to ask that all users of 7 public resource should shoulder their fair 8 share of the burden. Each of us is responsible 9 to maintain a healthy and sustainable habitat 10 and fishery. The proposed regulatory changes 11 we believe are the minimum measures that -- 12 that you should adopt to preserve these subject 13 resources for all user groups. 14 Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions or 16 comments? 17 Thank you. 18 Mr. Allen. 19 MR. ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman 20 and Commissioners. I'm Ray Allen. I'm 21 director of the Coastal Bend Bays and Estuaries 22 Program in Corpus Christi. We're the 23 implementation organization of the Corpus 24 Christi Bay National Estuary Program. 25 Geographically, our specific area of interest ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 127 1 is from the land cut and bath and bay area up 2 to the Aransas Wildlife Refuge and Mesquite Bay 3 Area. 4 First, I'd like to thank the staff for 5 soliciting our input and participation in 6 numerous meetings. I would say as the 7 shrimpers mentioned, we also were not tipped 8 off early to these coming rules. We wish we 9 had been. We would have liked to have seen 10 them earlier. We think there's room for 11 improvement in the other direction. 12 I was also somewhat amused here, and since 13 I'm speaking last, I have a little bit of a 14 rebuttal opportunity here. There was some 15 discussion earlier on about taking a 16 conservative approach to managing the resource, 17 and I would tell you from my perspective is 18 that we have not taken a conservative approach 19 to managing the resource. In fact, we are 20 walking the line as -- I think it was 21 Mr. Zimmerman said. We are at the edge of 22 losing this resource. 23 And I don't want to be up here crying, you 24 know, the sky is falling, but honestly, at this 25 time last year, we really thought the sky was ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 128 1 falling. Since then we've had another good 2 year offshore, but not necessarily in the bays 3 and -- and there's a variety of reasons for 4 that. Let me just say concerning the proposed 5 rules, we support the inclusion of the nursery 6 areas as originally proposed in the rules. We 7 can accept them as now proposed in the revised 8 version. 9 I would point out, though, that -- that 10 the designation by Parks and Wildlife, and 11 frankly the legislature in designating nursery 12 bays, bait bays, and major bays sometimes is a 13 designation without distinction because, in 14 fact, the bay systems the entire estuaries are 15 a nursery area that we are dealing with 16 juvenile and subadult populations of the 17 resource here, whether it's the shrimp in this 18 case or -- or many oft finfish or -- or other 19 net-living resources of the area. 20 We are -- In the bays, we are in the 21 nursery grounds. Some are perhaps more 22 valuable nurseries than others, and perhaps 23 that's what the regulations reflect. 24 Growth overfishing, I think we are all 25 very concerned about that. Nobody wants to get ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 129 1 to the next stage where we are facing 2 recruitment overfishing. Again, I think we're 3 somewhere between those lines and we got to be 4 careful here. 5 The proposal before you today as opposed 6 to what was published deletes some very 7 important components: Increases in mesh size 8 and an establishment of a minimum count size 9 for the spring season. We would request that 10 those regulations be included in the final 11 packet as they were in the original published 12 proposal. 13 Finally -- Or not finally yet, but the 14 bay-bait shrimping issue is so complicated, it 15 isn't really being addressed by these proposed 16 rule changes here that -- that we're going to 17 have to come back at a future date. As you all 18 know, this is just another step in the process 19 of the management of this resource. This 20 confusion over who has bait licenses and bay 21 licenses and where they shrimp and what size 22 net they use and how many pounds they can take 23 per day lends itself to a lot of abuse, a lot 24 of misuse, a lot of misunderstanding, and I 25 think somewhere along the line, we lost the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 130 1 original intent of establishing a bait season 2 and bait license. 3 Finally now, on the -- On the Southern 4 Zone gulf closure, I think the original 5 proposal as put forth was a good idea. It was 6 real straightforward, easy to manage, easy to 7 implement. That's the published proposal. The 8 staff recommended proposal today is a little 9 more complicated to manage, a little more 10 difficult to implement and regulate. 11 But having said that, I would tell you 12 that I am pursuaded by some of the arguments 13 put forth by the Gulf Shrimping Industry, the 14 Texas Shrimp Association regarding the -- the 15 sea turtles and regarding the apparent increase 16 in nesting success on their grounds in Mexico. 17 I think there's a very good story to be told 18 there and so that if staff has come back today 19 with a compromise proposal that -- that 20 alleviates some of the gulf shrimper's 21 concerns, then that's probably a livable 22 solution. 23 I think we need to keep a close eye on 24 that. At one time, 100 percent increase in 25 turtle nesting is a great and wonderful thing. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 131 1 We need to see that continue for the next four 2 or five years. So I -- I appreciate the 3 agency's efforts here to keep a close eye on 4 that. 5 Finally, I would note in closing, the one 6 concern we have, or I have, about the -- the 7 southern closure is that it has an opening. 8 And we all know what openings do, they -- they 9 create a derby race. You have now set a time 10 limit where folks are going to be lined up 11 ready to go, you know, to hit those areas that 12 have been closed for those many months. And -- 13 And I am at this point requesting that the 14 Parks and Wildlife staff make a commitment to 15 very closely monitor that situation that 16 they've created there so that we don't get in 17 the situation where too many boats are focusing 18 on one small area because of these closures 19 that have gone along. 20 I'll be glad to answer any questions. 21 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, 22 Mr. Allen. 23 Any questions or comments at this time? 24 MR. ALLEN: Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 132 1 Well, we've heard a -- a broad spectrum of 2 comments from various stakeholders in this 3 issue this morning. Obviously, I think this 4 afternoon and tomorrow we'll have opportunity 5 to -- to have considerable more public input 6 before the Commission is -- is charged with 7 making some final motions and -- and 8 regulations. 9 That being said, I think the appropriate 10 thing at this point would be for the Chair to 11 seek a motion to -- to forward this discussion 12 to the public meeting stage for further input. 13 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Chairman, 14 for clarification, any -- anything that is -- 15 was published is still before the Commission 16 regardless of the form or the recommendation 17 that's been made by staff today; is that 18 correct? 19 CHAIRMAN BASS: I -- I believe any -- 20 anything that's -- 21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Up or down in 22 other words. 23 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- that has been 24 published by -- 25 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Previously by ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 133 1 the Department is certainly available for 2 Commission action, and the caveat being I think 3 that we cannot be more -- as all regulations, 4 we cannot be more restrictive than something 5 that has been published in the Register for 6 public comment. 7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: The -- And 8 moving forward with the staff's proposal does 9 not necessarily commit the Commission to that 10 proposal either. 11 CHAIRMAN BASS: In no way. 12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: All of that 13 being said, I would move that it be moved 14 forward to tomorrow's meeting for -- 15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Action. 16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: -- action. 17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second. 18 Move this board for public comment and further 19 meetings and consideration tomorrow. 20 All in favor? 21 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed? 23 (No response, and motion carries 24 unanimously.) 25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 134 1 The last item on the Regulations Committee 2 agenda is an action item on Threatened and 3 Endangered Species Regulation which we will 4 consider tomorrow. The Chair would -- would 5 like to postpone the presentation until 6 tomorrow's meeting when -- when the Commission 7 will be in a position to hear the proposal 8 reviewed and -- and take action and that will 9 hopefully make us a little more expedient in 10 the rest of our business and not too late for 11 our one o'clock scheduled meeting. 12 That said, that's no further business to 13 come before the -- 14 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: 15 Mr. Chairman -- 16 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- Regulations 17 Committee. 18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: -- do we need 19 to move that to the agenda for tomorrow? 20 CHAIRMAN BASS: It certainly would 21 not hurt. 22 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: I so move. 23 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Second. 24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and second. 25 All in favor? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 135 1 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye. 2 (No resonse, and motion carries 3 unanimously.) 4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. And that 5 being said, no further business for the 6 Regulations Committee. I pass the -- adjourn 7 that and pass the gavel to my colleague from 8 the Finance Committee. 9 (SESSION ENDS.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 136 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) COUNTY OF BEXAR ) 2 3 I, TONYA R. THOMPSON, a Certified 4 Court Reporter in and for the State of Texas, 5 do hereby certify that the above and foregoing 6 137 pages constitute a full, true, and correct 7 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks 8 and Wildlife Commission on AUGUST 30, 2000, in 9 the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks 10 and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, 11 Travis County, Texas. 12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic 13 record was made by me at the time of the public 14 meeting and said stenographic notes were 15 thereafter reduced to computerized 16 transcription under my supervision and control. 17 WITNESS MY HAND this the day of 18 , 2000. 19 20 TONYA R. THOMPSON, Texas CSR 5476 21 Expiration Date: 12/2000 7800 IH-10 West, Suite 100 22 San Antonio, Texas 78230 (210) 377-3027 23 EBS NO.: 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016 . 137 1 2 3 LEE M. BASS, CHAIRMAN 4 5 CAROL E. DINKINS 6 7 DICK W. HEATH 8 9 NOLAN RYAN 10 11 ERNEST ANGELO, JR. 12 13 JOHN AVILA, JR. 14 15 ALVIN L. HENRY 16 17 KATHARINE ARMSTRONG IDSAL 18 19 MARK E. WATSON, JR. 20 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78230 (210) 377-3027 1-800-969-3027 (210) 344-6016